Biomass Suppliers List and Woodsure

[Bloders]

ive not got round to looking properly, as i have something else on this week.
However, the way i understood it, was its a way of auditing the wood supply. RHI have not been doing this - there was the potential for a inspection, but no regular audit (or check). I assume it was therfore to close this gap?
For self supply, as ourselves it should be "ok" to demonstrate via reasonable record keeping.

I dont think, or see the need for "lab" testing as its wood. All that really matters is where it came from (sustainable) and how dry it is(burn quality)? (I am no expert on this mind)

I also have a question. What about if you burn straw in your boiler. Woodsure only makes mention of wood (unsurprisingly) though our boiler can be approved for bruning straw.

 

[Gasquolet]

Think your jumping the gun. There should be no need to register with woodsure as it has nothing to do with RHI. The con is woodsure are down as the administrator of the BSL scheme but you dont have to be part of woodsure to be in that scheme. What you will require is an independent test of your woodfuel which various labs can do but woodsure are promoting their own lab. Its not even certain yet whether self supply will need an independent test or whether on small quantities it can be self certified maybe using spot checks.

I wish it were true, but by my reading of the new legislation, and BSL's approach to administering it there is no choice:

As a recipient of domestic RHI from biomass I am required to (be able to) demonstrate where the fuel for my installation comes from, either by showing invoices from a certified wood fuel supplier or by self-certifying my own supply. I could have chosen not to do this as I was always going to fuel the boiler from wood on the farm but I couldn't afford to take the risk as having no evidence of purchase of certified fuel would have put me at risk of forfeiting the RHI income if I wasn't registered as a self-supplier. That, incidentally is pretty much paying for the boiler and thermal stores etc, not something I can afford to lose. Self supplier registration costs £30/annum and wasn't onerous to achieve. I have to submit my self supplier registration number on my annual statement to keep the RHI rolling too.

Woodsure/ BSL are playing a clever trick, knowing that RHI claimants making their own fuel need self certification as a supplier, they have threatened to remove the self certification status of anyone who doesn't go on to register on the standard certification scheme. While others may come up to offer the service, unless Woodsure recognises it by then, I would lose my self supplier registration on 1st April.

It feels like the BSL/ Woodsure mechanism has simply found a way to gouge more cash from folk claiming RHI, on the basis that they can't afford not to play along. If there is a cheaper way to do it next year I'll certainly look at it.

Incidentally the Woodsure quality scheme for self suppliers looks like being less onerous, a declaration with self sampling and measurement so avoiding the need to employ outside labs or paying for samples to be analysed.

 

[NFI]

I would be interested to know how many self suppliers of fuel there are claiming RHI. Would there be 10s of us or hundreds cant even guess?
If Woodsure get difficult or expensive with small scale producers I would be willing to become part of a seperate certification scheme. If enough of us with similar quantities of fuel get together maybe we could have a simple self certification scheme.
I asked similar questions on the Arbtalk forum but didnt get much interest.

I think you'll find quite a few self suppliers about. I for one am watching this thread with interest wondering if I should send a three foot log by dpd to woodsure for analysis. I have a small woodland on the farm like most and finally found a use for it a few years ago. Plus the odd hedge I coppice.
I can't think that woodsure have the manpower or the equipment to test everyone's samples.
Can they ?
Are there any other companies out there who can dish out certificates ?
All before April 1st ? (Could be a joke mind)

 

[Poncherello1976]

Have just spoken to Woodsure. The £156 fee for non domestic includes testing, auditing and VAT. I can claim the VAT back so it does reduce a bit.
I buy in woodchip to supplement my own stuff, which is all above board from a BSL supplier. What is to stop me sending in a sample of that woodchip, saying it was mine?! Ridiculous!
I will try it for this year coming and see how we go. Not happy about it, but quite like the RHI coming in. If the fee starts creeping up as they have a monopoly then I will just buy in chip, but this may also tie in with less labour availability on the farm anyway. The closer I get to the end of the RHI period the less I will be worried about losing it!

 

[betternextyear]

Have just spoken to Woodsure. The £156 fee for non domestic includes testing, auditing and VAT. I can claim the VAT back so it does reduce a bit.
I buy in woodchip to supplement my own stuff, which is all above board from a BSL supplier. What is to stop me sending in a sample of that woodchip, saying it was mine?! Ridiculous!
I will try it for this year coming and see how we go. Not happy about it, but quite like the RHI coming in. If the fee starts creeping up as they have a monopoly then I will just buy in chip, but this may also tie in with less labour availability on the farm anyway. The closer I get to the end of the RHI period the less I will be worried about losing it!

Thanks for getting in touch with them saves me the job now. I too buy in a few tonnes of chip a year and make my own. It will be worth me paying the £130 for a few years. But if they get too expensive my own chip may get accidently mixed in with the trailer load I buy in.

 

[Gasquolet]

I think you'll find quite a few self suppliers about. I for one am watching this thread with interest wondering if I should send a three foot log by dpd to woodsure for analysis. I have a small woodland on the farm like most and finally found a use for it a few years ago. Plus the odd hedge I coppice.
I can't think that woodsure have the manpower or the equipment to test everyone's samples.
Can they ?
Are there any other companies out there who can dish out certificates ?
All before April 1st ? (Could be a joke mind)

As of today, Woodsure only recognises its own quality certification for self suppliers. The letter I received from them states that others may provide alternative certification, and to check the homepage of their website for more details going forward. Nothing there yet other than a re-direct back to their own system.

As mentioned above, when I found, as someone already registered as a domestic self-supplier on the BSL database, for me to register for the quality certificate with them too was 'only' £54, so I just did it. The main reason was the implicit threat to remove me from the BSL if I hadn't registered for the quality certificate with someone they recognise by April 1st. I simply didn't trust myself to remember to go hunting for an unknown alternative with busy weeks and months ahead.

As the self-supplier quality certificate is described during the application as a diy process and won't involve lab testing samples, I don't imagine that getting an independednt lab test on samples of your fuel would work out cheaper overall.

 

[Bruce Almighty]

ive not got round to looking properly, as i have something else on this week.
However, the way i understood it, was its a way of auditing the wood supply. RHI have not been doing this - there was the potential for a inspection, but no regular audit (or check). I assume it was therfore to close this gap?
For self supply, as ourselves it should be "ok" to demonstrate via reasonable record keeping.

I dont think, or see the need for "lab" testing as its wood. All that really matters is where it came from (sustainable) and how dry it is(burn quality)? (I am no expert on this mind)

I also have a question. What about if you burn straw in your boiler. Woodsure only makes mention of wood (unsurprisingly) though our boiler can be approved for bruning straw.

We also burn straw as well as logs.
For straw you need to be on the Sustainable Fuel Register, again it's something you have to pay for and a bit more paperwork, but it ticks the RHI boxes.

Front Page

This is a test description.

www.sfregister.org

 

[Bloders]

We also burn straw as well as logs.
For straw you need to be on the Sustainable Fuel Register, again it's something you have to pay for and a bit more paperwork, but it ticks the RHI boxes.

Front Page

This is a test description.

www.sfregister.org

so your BSL and SFR registered?
Do you buy in straaw to burn or use your own?
What boiler do you have?
thanks

 

[Bruce Almighty]

so your BSL and SFR registered?
Do you buy in straaw to burn or use your own?
What boiler do you have?
thanks

Yes registered for both
Use both own straw and bought in, have to provide them with field OS nos and areas it was grown on, how far it has travelled & approx how much diesel used baling & loading it.
SFR will do it for you for a fee, so I let them do it, I'd rather be safe than sorry.
Dragon D20

 

[Percy Veer]

I'm trying to fill out the form for Woodsure but I'm stumped on 2 items -

1. What is the log specification the boiler requires?
Note: As defined on the emissions certificate or operating manual of the boiler
(I don't have an Emission Certificate and my operating manual only says, 'Split logs with maximum water content less than 30%')

2. Please enter the fuel specification as declared on your Emissions Certificate.
Once again, I don't have an Emissions Certificate so I'm at a loss.

Can anyone help?

Thanks
Percy

 

[Gasquolet]

I'm trying to fill out the form for Woodsure but I'm stumped on 2 items -

1. What is the log specification the boiler requires?
Note: As defined on the emissions certificate or operating manual of the boiler
(I don't have an Emission Certificate and my operating manual only says, 'Split logs with maximum water content less than 30%')

2. Please enter the fuel specification as declared on your Emissions Certificate.
Once again, I don't have an Emissions Certificate so I'm at a loss.

Can anyone help?

Thanks
Percy

I struggled to find this too. They are looking for a specification so the description you have in the handbook (similar to my initial guess) won't cut it I suspect.

What is your boiler? Make/ model? Manufacturers/ importers should be able to help with this information if you didn't get with the supplied instructions/ documents when it was new.

 

[Gasquolet]

Forgot to say above, I had the same issue with finding this information for my domestic installation. I think this is a mistake on Woodsure's part, I don't think this question should be in the domestic self supplier manual.
I believe the emissions certificate was apparently only required for the application for commercial RHI. Anything eligible for MCS certification/ installation (thus eligible for domestic RHI) already meets the emissions requirements so doesn't need testing/ certification.

 

[Rod Dumbreck]

Im not sure, but in the early stages, I don't think emissions were a thing at all, even in the NDRHI, Does ISO9001 allow questions that don't have an answer?

 

[renewablejohn]

Forgot to say above, I had the same issue with finding this information for my domestic installation. I think this is a mistake on Woodsure's part, I don't think this question should be in the domestic self supplier manual.
I believe the emissions certificate was apparently only required for the application for commercial RHI. Anything eligible for MCS certification/ installation (thus eligible for domestic RHI) already meets the emissions requirements so doesn't need testing/ certification.

Just wait until your wood approval is dependant on meeting the standard of your declared boiler. Why else wood they be asking for this information as I cannot see it in the legislation.

 

[Rod Dumbreck]

Just wait until your wood approval is dependant on meeting the standard of your declared boiler. Why else wood they be asking for this information as I cannot see it in the legislation.

Hold on, how can wood quality be assessed on information about a boiler. If wood is produced to a standard that it can be assessed against, it really doesn't matter what the name on the boiler reads.

 

[Percy Veer]

Thanks guys, I've completed the form and wait to hear their approval, (Or disapproval).
I spoke to the installer and the boiler distributer and used log specification EN 14961-5 as stated on my MCS Compliance Certificate

 

[renewablejohn]

Hold on, how can wood quality be assessed on information about a boiler. If wood is produced to a standard that it can be assessed against, it really doesn't matter what the name on the boiler reads.

No if you have signed up to a boiler which is only approved for RHI to burn wood at 18% sending your wood in at 20% will automatically get it rejected as not meeting the requirement of your boiler. Many boilers could only meet the emmissions standards by using super dry wood in the laboratory. If you have one of those boilers you will be stuffed.

 

[Gasquolet]

Just wait until your wood approval is dependant on meeting the standard of your declared boiler. Why else wood they be asking for this information as I cannot see it in the legislation.

I'm not entirely worried about that if it was to happen. I will be self certifying my logs according to Woodsure, even if I got a visit from OFGEM they would be more interested in record keeping and procedure than finding fault with individual lumps of wood. After all, not all the logs in my shed go into the RHI boiler, I supply another 4 non-RHI appliances with them too.

Woodsure asked for log specification, either from the operating manual for the appliance, or the emissions certificate.
-My manual says hard or softwood logs up to 50cm, with a moisture content of 15% to an absolute maximum of 25%
-The manufacturer stated on the emissions certificate A1- Wood to ISO 17255-5 2014: D15, L40, M20 (reference to ISO 17255-5 which is a means to classify/ grade and describe fuel logs)

Which decodes as:
A1: Wood logs from tree stem or branch, species not specific, round or split with 90% or more split. Or non-treated wood residues.
D15: width at widest dimension over 70% of the log mass of less than or equal to 10cm, up to 15cm with a maximum of 20cm anywhere on the log. Up to 10% of logs undersize.
L40: less than or equal to 40cm long, +/-2cm (so up to 42cm long then...)
M20: moisture content in the range of 10% up to 20%, in this case giving the upper end of the available range.

That is not over prescriptive to my mind, especially where there are very few recognised measurement standards for firewood and they had to select one as part of the emissions certification. In this case, ISO 17255-5 was written exactly for that purpose and neatly covers the fuel description the manufacturer wanted to specify. The MC at 20% could be seen as a little harsh if air drying but the standard doesn't exceed M20 so there is no choice there. I wouldn't want to put logs through a gasifier at 25% anyway. For coppice wood, splitting over 90% might be awkward but I doubt many are running gasifiers on round coppice wood alone. As I mentioned, I also supply other appliances on the farm.

 

[Bloders]

according to woodsure website, the process is not ready yet for self suppliers?

 

[renewablejohn]

I'm not entirely worried about that if it was to happen. I will be self certifying my logs according to Woodsure, even if I got a visit from OFGEM they would be more interested in record keeping and procedure than finding fault with individual lumps of wood. After all, not all the logs in my shed go into the RHI boiler, I supply another 4 non-RHI appliances with them too.

Woodsure asked for log specification, either from the operating manual for the appliance, or the emissions certificate.
-My manual says hard or softwood logs up to 50cm, with a moisture content of 15% to an absolute maximum of 25%
-The manufacturer stated on the emissions certificate A1- Wood to ISO 17255-5 2014: D15, L40, M20 (reference to ISO 17255-5 which is a means to classify/ grade and describe fuel logs)

Which decodes as:
A1: Wood logs from tree stem or branch, species not specific, round or split with 90% or more split. Or non-treated wood residues.
D15: width at widest dimension over 70% of the log mass of less than or equal to 10cm, up to 15cm with a maximum of 20cm anywhere on the log. Up to 10% of logs undersize.
L40: less than or equal to 40cm long, +/-2cm (so up to 42cm long then...)
M20: moisture content in the range of 10% up to 20%, in this case giving the upper end of the available range.

That is not over prescriptive to my mind, especially where there are very few recognised measurement standards for firewood and they had to select one as part of the emissions certification. In this case, ISO 17255-5 was written exactly for that purpose and neatly covers the fuel description the manufacturer wanted to specify. The MC at 20% could be seen as a little harsh if air drying but the standard doesn't exceed M20 so there is no choice there. I wouldn't want to put logs through a gasifier at 25% anyway. For coppice wood, splitting over 90% might be awkward but I doubt many are running gasifiers on round coppice wood alone. As I mentioned, I also supply other appliances on the farm.

Hope your right but experience from people around here is quite different.