Blood sucking ahdb

Austin7

Member
I saw that letter. Bit dim distant memory now, but I seem to recall when the Potato Council was based at Oxford, as a stand alone before it fell under the collective banner of AHDB, there were research papers and documents in paper form dating back decades that could be accessed from the Library. I wonder if it is these Austin7 was referencing. Not sure everything has been digitised. But I am not that close to potato agronomy, so you would need to ask someone else.

May I take it your post though was gently taking a pot at me?! That R&D is not available to all. Hence you reference to Austin7 letter to Saphir.
Letters to Chairman or AHDB from prevous Chairman of PMP is way, way above my pay grade. But I believe you are wrong. I find information available. And in recent weeks trawled and posted on here in relevant threads Research Reviews and Project Reports from the 1990s completed and published under the auspices of HGCA.

Austin7 may not be able to access something through the search engine. But had he spoken with Rob Clayton, or the Adrians at Sutton Bridge. These staff have been at PMB then Potato Council for decades. Knowledgeable and very helpful. But looks as though the grower base may take a different view. Hey ho. There you go.

“Hindsight” you bring up many interesting points in your latest contributions, difficult to know where to start. You mentioned the Bell Report, Ron Bell had been bought in by Jopling to consider the future of ADAS, Thatcher wanted to take it to the market. Myself and a few others had a scheme to benefit from this and when we found out that Ron was coming to speak locally we kidnapped him from the train station, it worked, we got what we wanted, which was private use of the best ADAS officer.

Knowledge transfer by means of kidnap is not the most obvious solution to the problem, but it is a whole lot better than your proposal of asking Rob Clayton. Been there, got the frustration. You say he has “been at PMB then Potato Council for decades”……... I won’t bore you with copies of emails and their inadequate responses going back over the years because all the same grumbles which now threaten to bring AHDB Potatoes down have been left ignored by those who have been managing our levy “for decades”.

Professor Ron Bell’s 84 report on ADAS leads directly to AHDB and the many hundreds of private Agronomists who “support” todays farmers. When I am feeling particularly aggravatious I tell my son’s Agronomists that they are the ruination of farmers. It has become little more than farming by numbers. This same attitude pervades knowledge transfer. Farmers are now deemed incapable of absorbing knowledge unless it is in comic form.

Yes “Hindsight” you are right I was referring to the PMB/ Potato Council Oxford Library of research documents. It frustrates me that after 25 years complaining the simple task of putting them all on line has not been done. Of course Levy payers revolt if they are forced to pour money into the top and nothing comes out the bottom. Further, in my view AHDB should go beyond its own data and make available as much basic core research as it can lay its hands upon. We regularly use old research data when we can find it, the frustration is that too much is locked away somewhere in the vaults. For example a wet harvest had left us with immediate difficulties washing potatoes. The best advice we found was from experiments done back in 1951 “Efficiency of various methods of washing red river valley potatoes”. Closer to home we benefited hugely from research done by Andrews and Peters SBEU BPC 2006 “Evaluating the efficacy of a screen humidity cell in filtering pathogens and other particulates out of air in potato stores”.

Regardless whether the vote is won or lost Nick Saphir has to take his reform proposals way further than he currently proposing. It’s my belief that those who say a lost vote is the end are not serious players, Nick Saphir says that, but hopefully he does not believe it. We need a clean sheet, the levy should just be the skeleton, subscription services should provide the flesh. Nick Saphir says he is going to ask what we want, really Nick? I have been asking Rob Clayton and all Saphir’s predecessors for years, result zilch. No Nick make the AHDB produce something we voluntarily want to pay for. I would be first in line to pay to support the world’s best online potato research site. If it is good enough the world will pay for it. We hold a product in our dusty cupboards which should be earning. Surely, we have learnt that while we compulsorily hand over Levy nothing gets done.
 
I feel I must come back to comment on the excellent posts from you Austin 7, you have like ourselves discovered that the ahdb have a completely indifferent attitude to the levy payers, they seem oblivious to the criticism levelled at them, unable and unwilling to change and improve then again why break into a sweat when the money rolls in regardless, how on earth can you run an organisation on these principles, you have only to see how saphir tried to run for cover on the potato town hall meeting when Tim O’Malley tied him up in knots, he said to Tim can we carry on this conversation after the meeting, I rang Tim to see how it went he said he never rang, at least we have shown that the ahdb is not fit for purpose and should be put out to pasture.
 

Austin7

Member
I feel I must come back to comment on the excellent posts from you Austin 7, you have like ourselves discovered that the ahdb have a completely indifferent attitude to the levy payers, they seem oblivious to the criticism levelled at them, unable and unwilling to change and improve then again why break into a sweat when the money rolls in regardless, how on earth can you run an organisation on these principles, you have only to see how saphir tried to run for cover on the potato town hall meeting when Tim O’Malley tied him up in knots, he said to Tim can we carry on this conversation after the meeting, I rang Tim to see how it went he said he never rang, at least we have shown that the ahdb is not fit for purpose and should be put out to pasture.

White Rabbit thanks for your compliment but I fear you miss my punch line, which was “It’s my belief that those who say a lost vote is the end are not serious players” I have always believed that potato growers need a body to enable collective activity. That is why, however frustrated I am, I can’t bring myself to vote it down. But I also can’t support those who have administered it over the last decade. I will abstain hoping that AHDB potatoes gets the kicking it richly deserves. It needs to be a near death experience. From the start of the Potato Council the final decision where to go should a ballot be lost is in the hands first of the Minister and then Parliament. It would be irresponsible for the Minister to leave the industry without a body just because of the blatant mismanagement under which that body has suffered. We need to recognise that the body and its’ management are separate entities.The body has been as ill used as the Levy payers. Clearly resignations are required, clearly Nick Saphir needs to embrace real total change and clearly those who have through understandable frustration bought this ballot into being need to be man enough to accept that we should give it another chance.
 
White Rabbit thanks for your compliment but I fear you miss my punch line, which was “It’s my belief that those who say a lost vote is the end are not serious players” I have always believed that potato growers need a body to enable collective activity. That is why, however frustrated I am, I can’t bring myself to vote it down. But I also can’t support those who have administered it over the last decade. I will abstain hoping that AHDB potatoes gets the kicking it richly deserves. It needs to be a near death experience. From the start of the Potato Council the final decision where to go should a ballot be lost is in the hands first of the Minister and then Parliament. It would be irresponsible for the Minister to leave the industry without a body just because of the blatant mismanagement under which that body has suffered. We need to recognise that the body and its’ management are separate entities.The body has been as ill used as the Levy payers. Clearly resignations are required, clearly Nick Saphir needs to embrace real total change and clearly those who have through understandable frustration bought this ballot into being need to be man enough to accept that we should give it another chance.
Has you point out Austin 7 the potato industry hasn’t had a proper body for years, maybe you could define collective activity because if it’s r and d the amount of difference it make is minuscule, playing about with chemicals and fertilisers is only tinkering around the edges, the main problem with the industry is complete market failure, all inputs have gone on to another planet and yet prices remain in the last century, price is the place which determines if you make a profit or loss. On a final note it as emerged tonight that the ahdb are unable to close the horticultural sector down for another year ,so we now have a situation where growers have voted unanimously to end the levy only to find they will have to keep paying it is going to be chaotic.
 

Austin7

Member
Has you point out Austin 7 the potato industry hasn’t had a proper body for years, maybe you could define collective activity because if it’s r and d the amount of difference it make is minuscule, playing about with chemicals and fertilisers is only tinkering around the edges, the main problem with the industry is complete market failure, all inputs have gone on to another planet and yet prices remain in the last century, price is the place which determines if you make a profit or loss. On a final note it as emerged tonight that the ahdb are unable to close the horticultural sector down for another year ,so we now have a situation where growers have voted unanimously to end the levy only to find they will have to keep paying it is going to be chaotic.

White Rabbit I know nothing of AHDB Horticulture but I do know what unanimous means, for sure in Horticulture you do not have a situation where all parties involved are fully in agreement and where there is no dissent. No way is it close to unanimous and the Minister needs to reflect on that. I do know a little about potatoes. A sustainable industry is based upon a many legged stool. If you are honestly saying that you want to neglect the science of growing the crop but still earn a profit then you are indeed going to be difficult to please. I can agree that the farm gate value of the crop is pivotal. I agree there is market failure in terms that the end retail value of the crop is not equitably divided. I agree that the lack of even remotely adequate management of AHDB Potatoes is an important cause of that market failure. Growers are denied information they need to put a value on what can often be 18 months investment. All too often AHDB report prices which can only be described as grossly misleading. Fruit Trades journal report today that the average value of Whites and Reds out of Spitalfields market is £380 per ton, the stallholder will need £40 it costs £25 to get them there so they should be worth £315 back on the farm. Ours are not brilliant so I am happy with a £290 average including seconds, yet AHDB Potato weekly shows £140. There can be little doubt that the current management of AHDB has allowed it to be used to manipulate the market. So I am with you to the extent that the current management has to go, but I am not a supporter of getting rid of the body that has suffered as much neglect as the Levy payers have.
 
White Rabbit I know nothing of AHDB Horticulture but I do know what unanimous means, for sure in Horticulture you do not have a situation where all parties involved are fully in agreement and where there is no dissent. No way is it close to unanimous and the Minister needs to reflect on that. I do know a little about potatoes. A sustainable industry is based upon a many legged stool. If you are honestly saying that you want to neglect the science of growing the crop but still earn a profit then you are indeed going to be difficult to please. I can agree that the farm gate value of the crop is pivotal. I agree there is market failure in terms that the end retail value of the crop is not equitably divided. I agree that the lack of even remotely adequate management of AHDB Potatoes is an important cause of that market failure. Growers are denied information they need to put a value on what can often be 18 months investment. All too often AHDB report prices which can only be described as grossly misleading. Fruit Trades journal report today that the average value of Whites and Reds out of Spitalfields market is £380 per ton, the stallholder will need £40 it costs £25 to get them there so they should be worth £315 back on the farm. Ours are not brilliant so I am happy with a £290 average including seconds, yet AHDB Potato weekly shows £140. There can be little doubt that the current management of AHDB has allowed it to be used to manipulate the market. So I am with you to the extent that the current management has to go, but I am not a supporter of getting rid of the body that has suffered as much neglect as the Levy payers have.
 

simon w

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Hayling Island
White Rabbit I know nothing of AHDB Horticulture but I do know what unanimous means, for sure in Horticulture you do not have a situation where all parties involved are fully in agreement and where there is no dissent. No way is it close to unanimous and the Minister needs to reflect on that. I do know a little about potatoes. A sustainable industry is based upon a many legged stool. If you are honestly saying that you want to neglect the science of growing the crop but still earn a profit then you are indeed going to be difficult to please. I can agree that the farm gate value of the crop is pivotal. I agree there is market failure in terms that the end retail value of the crop is not equitably divided. I agree that the lack of even remotely adequate management of AHDB Potatoes is an important cause of that market failure. Growers are denied information they need to put a value on what can often be 18 months investment. All too often AHDB report prices which can only be described as grossly misleading. Fruit Trades journal report today that the average value of Whites and Reds out of Spitalfields market is £380 per ton, the stallholder will need £40 it costs £25 to get them there so they should be worth £315 back on the farm. Ours are not brilliant so I am happy with a £290 average including seconds, yet AHDB Potato weekly shows £140. There can be little doubt that the current management of AHDB has allowed it to be used to manipulate the market. So I am with you to the extent that the current management has to go, but I am not a supporter of getting rid of the body that has suffered as much neglect as the Levy payers have.
I think with all of the problems you highlight about ahbd management they will not change, they have just got worse and particularly their failure to engage with the levy payers. It is time for them to stand on their own feet and to make the levy voluntary. I would support an organisation to promote British produce, the ahdb with all the sectors don't stand a chance of pleasing everybody.
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
So I am with you to the extent that the current management has to go, but I am not a supporter of getting rid of the body that has suffered as much neglect as the Levy payers have.

You seem to show a very touching faith that whatever new management was put in place would not revert to exactly the same behaviour as the old one once their seat on the gravy train was secure. Do you not see that any body that is not beholden to voluntary paying customers and instead relies on the force of law to make people pay will inevitably tend towards running things for their own interest rather than for those paying the bills? How exactly would you ensure that the very same situation that you describe now did not repeat itself in the future under new management?
 

Austin7

Member
You seem to show a very touching faith that whatever new management was put in place would not revert to exactly the same behaviour as the old one once their seat on the gravy train was secure. Do you not see that any body that is not beholden to voluntary paying customers and instead relies on the force of law to make people pay will inevitably tend towards running things for their own interest rather than for those paying the bills? How exactly would you ensure that the very same situation that you describe now did not repeat itself in the future under new management?

Goweresque and Simon W are rightly sceptical, history is on their side. My position is that the institution, the legal frame work, is an important industry asset. It has been sadly misused by the current management. We had a chance to put things right when David Piccaver was appointed to Chair the Board, sadly David’s way to early passing robbed us of that chance. I repeat again AHDB requires a good kicking, it needs to suffer a near death experience. Should the vote come anywhere near being lost then the management should immediately resign, if they don’t the Minister should see that the right thing is done. Nick Saphir then has 5 years with a clean sheet before the first of the regular ballots. If management loses confidence of Levy payers they go, simple as that. This is why it would be different, why the years and years of arrogant disregard of our complaints would not be repeated.
 
Goweresque and Simon W are rightly sceptical, history is on their side. My position is that the institution, the legal frame work, is an important industry asset. It has been sadly misused by the current management. We had a chance to put things right when David Piccaver was appointed to Chair the Board, sadly David’s way to early passing robbed us of that chance. I repeat again AHDB requires a good kicking, it needs to suffer a near death experience. Should the vote come anywhere near being lost then the management should immediately resign, if they don’t the Minister should see that the right thing is done. Nick Saphir then has 5 years with a clean sheet before the first of the regular ballots. If management loses confidence of Levy payers they go, simple as that. This is why it would be different, why the years and years of arrogant disregard of our complaints would not be repeated.
Austin 7 I would like to ask you the same question that I am asking the flow of agronomists that are coming on to the farm at the moment, I am in the process of getting quotes, which is name the ground breaking things that ahdb have produced in the last 12 years for potatoes, if you can name even one that will be one more than all these chaps.
 

Austin7

Member
Austin 7 I would like to ask you the same question that I am asking the flow of agronomists that are coming on to the farm at the moment, I am in the process of getting quotes, which is name the ground breaking things that ahdb have produced in the last 12 years for potatoes, if you can name even one that will be one more than all these chaps.

I can in no way defend the management of AHDB Potatoes but that is a separate issue to retaining the legal structures. We know that any vote to close down Cereals and Oilseeds would be lost by a huge margin. Therefore the structure, the legislation, shows it can work, it can command Levy payer support. One of my many frustrations is that the R & D done by some excellent scientists sponsored in part or whole by AHDB never sees the light of day except in comic form. So, when you ask a group of Agronomists, who too often have been turned into non thinking rule takers, it is not surprising that you are met with head scratching. I answer by saying go into Google Scholar and type in AHDB, then type in British Potato Council and then try Potato Marketing Board and you will get a glimpse of the tip of what is lying hidden. Imagine for a moment that this was all properly searchable even White Rabbit might take an interest. But hold on, you are after practical examples. I can give you two. First as all potato growers know the challenge is that Potatoes can give up or go lazy for no apparent reason. Without getting into details we became convinced that soil applied Amistar was killing our mycorrhizal fungi. The reason you can make a seedbed much easier after beans than after rape is that mycorrhizal fungi love beans and hate rape. One of the Uk’s experts on mycorrhizal fungi is Paul Gosling of AHDB. He is an expert because he is supported by AHDB. We had a problem with in-store silver scurf, the nature of our trade is that we are in and out of stores every day which is a disastrous thing to do if you suffer from silver scurf. The answer lay in a Sutton Bridge paper by Andrews and Peters SBEU “Evaluating the efficacy of a screen humidity cell in filtering pathogens and other particulates out of air in potato stores”. We took the experimental device and made a large one which we move with a forklift. Simple, cheap, job done. If you are still unsure invite Mark Stalham out to look at your crop, challenge him that science is a waste of resources and stand back and absorb the knowledge that AHDB has supported for many years. It is all there, the only reason we are where we are with AHDB Potatoes is total rubbish management. I have told them endlessly to make the information available but not one finger has lifted to do so. It is not the system it is the operators fault that the wheels have fallen off.
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
Goweresque and Simon W are rightly sceptical, history is on their side. My position is that the institution, the legal frame work, is an important industry asset. It has been sadly misused by the current management. We had a chance to put things right when David Piccaver was appointed to Chair the Board, sadly David’s way to early passing robbed us of that chance. I repeat again AHDB requires a good kicking, it needs to suffer a near death experience. Should the vote come anywhere near being lost then the management should immediately resign, if they don’t the Minister should see that the right thing is done. Nick Saphir then has 5 years with a clean sheet before the first of the regular ballots. If management loses confidence of Levy payers they go, simple as that. This is why it would be different, why the years and years of arrogant disregard of our complaints would not be repeated.

You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think senior salaried employees of the AHDB are going to voluntarily resign their positions (and pensions) out of a fit of shame that their management has lead to a vote against the levy. There's not a hope in hell of that happening. Why on earth would they? They have contracts of employment and employment rights, why would they give all that up? And they can't be sacked or made redundant either, not if their job is still needed to be done, and they have passed all their employment appraisals and haven't acted in some manner that would enable instant dismissal. The only way to get rid of senior management is to make them redundant because their job no longer exists, or offer them even more of levy payers money to leave voluntarily.
 
I can in no way defend the management of AHDB Potatoes but that is a separate issue to retaining the legal structures. We know that any vote to close down Cereals and Oilseeds would be lost by a huge margin. Therefore the structure, the legislation, shows it can work, it can command Levy payer support. One of my many frustrations is that the R & D done by some excellent scientists sponsored in part or whole by AHDB never sees the light of day except in comic form. So, when you ask a group of Agronomists, who too often have been turned into non thinking rule takers, it is not surprising that you are met with head scratching. I answer by saying go into Google Scholar and type in AHDB, then type in British Potato Council and then try Potato Marketing Board and you will get a glimpse of the tip of what is lying hidden. Imagine for a moment that this was all properly searchable even White Rabbit might take an interest. But hold on, you are after practical examples. I can give you two. First as all potato growers know the challenge is that Potatoes can give up or go lazy for no apparent reason. Without getting into details we became convinced that soil applied Amistar was killing our mycorrhizal fungi. The reason you can make a seedbed much easier after beans than after rape is that mycorrhizal fungi love beans and hate rape. One of the Uk’s experts on mycorrhizal fungi is Paul Gosling of AHDB. He is an expert because he is supported by AHDB. We had a problem with in-store silver scurf, the nature of our trade is that we are in and out of stores every day which is a disastrous thing to do if you suffer from silver scurf. The answer lay in a Sutton Bridge paper by Andrews and Peters SBEU “Evaluating the efficacy of a screen humidity cell in filtering pathogens and other particulates out of air in potato stores”. We took the experimental device and made a large one which we move with a forklift. Simple, cheap, job done. If you are still unsure invite Mark Stalham out to look at your crop, challenge him that science is a waste of resources and stand back and absorb the knowledge that AHDB has supported for many years. It is all there, the only reason we are where we are with AHDB Potatoes is total rubbish management. I have told them endlessly to make the information available but not one finger has lifted to do so. It is not the system it is the operators fault that the wheels have fallen off.
Austin 7 the wheels have come off because the incentive gets taken away when you have a compulsory levy, look at the horticultural vote 802 out of 1200 want to get rid , not only have the wheels come off our sector they took the axles with them.
 
You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think senior salaried employees of the AHDB are going to voluntarily resign their positions (and pensions) out of a fit of shame that their management has lead to a vote against the levy. There's not a hope in hell of that happening. Why on earth would they? They have contracts of employment and employment rights, why would they give all that up? And they can't be sacked or made redundant either, not if their job is still needed to be done, and they have passed all their employment appraisals and haven't acted in some manner that would enable instant dismissal. The only way to get rid of senior management is to make them redundant because their job no longer exists, or offer them even more of levy payers money to leave voluntarily.
I think you have summed that up very well Goweresque, but the figure I find the most difficult to comprehend is out of almost 500 staff 240 are admin , I think you need to say this to yourself a few times to let it sink in , what the hell are they doing 8 hours a day 5 days a week.
 

Austin7

Member
You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think senior salaried employees of the AHDB are going to voluntarily resign their positions (and pensions) out of a fit of shame that their management has lead to a vote against the levy. There's not a hope in hell of that happening. Why on earth would they? They have contracts of employment and employment rights, why would they give all that up? And they can't be sacked or made redundant either, not if their job is still needed to be done, and they have passed all their employment appraisals and haven't acted in some manner that would enable instant dismissal. The only way to get rid of senior management is to make them redundant because their job no longer exists, or offer them even more of levy payers money to leave voluntarily.

At the time BPC was set up I had responsibility to look after the best interests of growers. Looking back at my notes at the time the terms of employment then were that the Chief Executive’s contract could be terminated by either side with three months’ notice. No termination payments applied. Staff were appointed on permanent contracts. All their notice periods were six months and any termination payments made would have been on contractual terms only. Loss of confidence by Levy payers would without doubt be cause for termination of a contract, there would be no other alternative. In this case the Captain does not take the ship down. I see no reason why these terms should have been relaxed.
 

Austin7

Member
I think you have summed that up very well Goweresque, but the figure I find the most difficult to comprehend is out of almost 500 staff 240 are admin , I think you need to say this to yourself a few times to let it sink in , what the hell are they doing 8 hours a day 5 days a week.

Without doubt AHDB’s administration costs are a genuine cause for concern. According to their final Accounts, at the time they were all wound up in 2008, the British Potato Council employed 49 the Home-Grown Cereals Authority 70; the Horticultural Development Council 17; the Meat and Livestock Commission 121; and the Milk Development Council 51. A Total of 308. The current total is 499. With my Potato hat on I believe David Walker did a good job at the BPC certainly it was then totally transparent how the Levy money was spent. Not so true now.
 

simon w

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Hayling Island
Without doubt AHDB’s administration costs are a genuine cause for concern. According to their final Accounts, at the time they were all wound up in 2008, the British Potato Council employed 49 the Home-Grown Cereals Authority 70; the Horticultural Development Council 17; the Meat and Livestock Commission 121; and the Milk Development Council 51. A Total of 308. The current total is 499. With my Potato hat on I believe David Walker did a good job at the BPC certainly it was then totally transparent how the Levy money was spent. Not so true now.
I would have hoped that with your knowledge of the problems within the potato sector you will vote "no" in the ballot. Mr saphir has already abused his position in that he has used our Levy funds to try to influence the vote with full page adverts in the FW etc. This is a miss use of funds and an indication he can't be trusted to manage the ahdb in the future and bring about the changes that are necessary. I will be voting "no" because I see no value for my levy, let me decide which organisation is worth supporting.
 
I would have hoped that with your knowledge of the problems within the potato sector you will vote "no" in the ballot. Mr saphir has already abused his position in that he has used our Levy funds to try to influence the vote with full page adverts in the FW etc. This is a miss use of funds and an indication he can't be trusted to manage the ahdb in the future and bring about the changes that are necessary. I will be voting "no" because I see no value for my levy, let me decide which organisation is worth supporting.
We have put a press release in the farmers guardian tomorrow which is worth a look, most people would already have seen we have yet another obstacle thrown in our path, these people at ahdb couldn’t lay straight in bed, first they encouraged us to have a ballot , no sorry wrong wording, they taunted us in to having a ballot, then when we caught them by surprise in winning they turned to the history books to dig out the old pmb stunt of weighting which of course worked for the pmb, they also managed to discount a number of levy payers who could not afford to pay , even though they had paid for the last 12 years, guy told us there were none so we have done some arm twisting now it appears there were 138 ,which you can assume they would have been no voters , you wouldn’t vote for another invoice when you couldn’t pay the last ,now they are saying it will to carry on for another year , more money into the pension pot and another £28,000 out of my bank . I just hope other sectors are watching, what was their slogan a vote every 5 years don’t make me laugh.
 

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