Border Leicesters and their future...

[Nithsdale]

Now then. I've gotten friendly with a lassie who breeds Borders and she's on the breed council (some of you may can maybe figure out who she is from that ).

Anyway, we were talking about the breed and how the Halfbred sales are pretty close to ending... I asked her where does the society see the breed in 10 years and what direction is it headed. Her reply was that most breeders/members are old fashioned and aren't looking beyond the Halfbred and pure sales. Change is a hard fight - which is a death knell in itself.

To get brownie points I said I'd use my contacts to see if I could come up with a new/interesting idea for the breed, or find someone doing something a bit different... so this is where you lot come in:

Does anyone know anyone else using the breed other than on Cheviots? If so, what breed ewes and what are you doing with them?

Does anyone know anyone still breeding the traditional Greyface?

I know of 1 farm in Ayrshire using the Border on Lleyns to breed his own 'Halfbred', Iv got the society trying to get him to put his sheep on their stand at this year's Scotsheep. There's also a member Iv spoken to on here who sold BorderXBeltex rams at Kelso 2 years ago to a farm in the Borders for use on SufX ewes, but he hasn't been on for a few months...

(I have suggested breeding better, tighter skins and making them a little smaller/lighter boned - but she thinks that would go down like a death in the family).

 

[sherg]

Dad used to keep welsh halfbreds back in the 80's but changed to mules like everyone else because you could sell more lambs, http://www.welshhalfbredsheep.co.uk/the_breed.htm it doesn't say in the link if its a scanning or weaning % but I'd presume the former, but they need to have more lambs to ever be successful again, shame really I always remember them being nicer than the mules

 

[jendan]

Now then. I've gotten friendly with a lassie who breeds Borders and she's on the breed council (some of you may can maybe figure out who she is from that ).

Anyway, we were talking about the breed and how the Halfbred sales are pretty close to ending... I asked her where does the society see the breed in 10 years and what direction is it headed. Her reply was that most breeders/members are old fashioned and aren't looking beyond the Halfbred and pure sales. Change is a hard fight - which is a death knell in itself.

To get brownie points I said I'd use my contacts to see if I could come up with a new/interesting idea for the breed, or find someone doing something a bit different... so this is where you lot come in:

Does anyone know anyone else using the breed other than on Cheviots? If so, what breed ewes and what are you doing with them?

Does anyone know anyone still breeding the traditional Greyface?

I know of 1 farm in Ayrshire using the Border on Lleyns to breed his own 'Halfbred', Iv got the society trying to get him to put his sheep on their stand at this year's Scotsheep. There's also a member Iv spoken to on here who sold BorderXBeltex rams at Kelso 2 years ago to a farm in the Borders for use on SufX ewes, but he hasn't been on for a few months...

(I have suggested breeding better, tighter skins and making them a little smaller/lighter boned - but she thinks that would go down like a death in the family).

Why on earth would you want Border tups for crossing smaller? You would just end up with little diddly half bred lambs no good for nowt,and too small for breeding.The bigger the better for pures,you dont see any Blues of either kind getting smaller.The biggest mule ewe lambs and gimmers always make the most money.They want to concentrate on getting more meat and confirmation into them.The traditional Scotch Half Bred is a thing of beauty.

 

[jendan]

Dad used to keep welsh halfbreds back in the 80's but changed to mules like everyone else because you could sell more lambs, http://www.welshhalfbredsheep.co.uk/the_breed.htm it doesn't say in the link if its a scanning or weaning % but I'd presume the former, but they need to have more lambs to ever be successful again, shame really I always remember them being nicer than the mules

They are no good out of Welsh Mountain,too small.They have to be out of North Cheviots.

 

[sherg]

They are no good out of Welsh Mountain,too small.They have to be out of North Cheviots.

there's welsh mountains and there's welsh mountains the bigger improved types are good sheep they now produce white faced welsh mules

 

[S J H]

I don't think I'll find much of a better ewe than a scotch halfbred x Suffolk.

Half breds make serious money around here.

 

[jendan]

I don't think I'll find much of a better ewe than a scotch halfbred x Suffolk.

Half breds make serious money around here.

Got to have the Half Breds there first though.Is the serious money for them out of Thame for gimmers? I think a fair few get bought as ewe lambs out of Lockerbie and St Boswells.I cant afford even ewe lambs now,too dear at £120+.Have tried breeding some of my own but i think North Cheviots are suited to higher ground than i have.

 

[hendrebc]

Dad used to really rate welsh halfbreds much better than mules here he said. I just about remember them before he started breeding them up to lleyns but was to young to do anything with them.
He got all nostalgic at a sheep sale about 10 years ago and bought 20 halfbreds home with him... the less said about them the better
Border leicesters are comoletley different sheep abroad have a look at some mew zealand, australian and american border leicesters they look really uselful sheep. Not like the ones here that are all ears and not much else from what im told.

 

[Ysgythan]

I reckon the Texel could save them. Open the flock book to a cross of Texel then close it again. Importing NZ and Aussie bloodlines another option. Plenty of people who’ve been to NZ say the Coopworths are the better sheep out there. Change the halfbred sales so that any ewe can be the mother, and try to get BL x Romney, BL x Lleyn, BL x Highlander and other fashionable things that would excite new entrants. Let’s face it Innovis only developed the Aberfield because they were left with a flock of Texels and a flock of BFL in Aberystwyth when the govt funding dried up.

 

[hendrebc]

There alrwady is some leicestwr in lleyn so that should work well as a cross to improve them.
If they are very careful about which lleyn they choose

 

[harperfarmer]

We used to run all scotch halfbreds here put to suffolk tups. Suberb fat lambs and the ewe lambs made cracking replacements (if you like huge fat big ewes that weighed more than the tups). The charollais lambs out of the Suffolk x scotch halfbreds were even better. Where the system fell down was that the half breds were lousy mothers, didn't have enough milk and never had enough lambs anyway. The number of theaves that would be turned out with couples and would just bugger off across the field with one would be the majority . Plus they were always bloody expensive to buy. If they could improve lambing % and the maternal traits in general it would be a start. But ultimately do they offer enough that you can't just get from other breeds!?

 

[Nithsdale]

Why on earth would you want Border tups for crossing smaller? You would just end up with little diddly half bred lambs no good for nowt,and too small for breeding.The bigger the better for pures,you dont see any Blues of either kind getting smaller.The biggest mule ewe lambs and gimmers always make the most money.They want to concentrate on getting more meat and confirmation into them.The traditional Scotch Half Bred is a thing of beauty.

The biggest complaint in this area was the Halfbred was too big a sheep and too heavy boned... so a slighter frame would be beneficial?



For what it's worth, the BFL is going too far as it is. The Mule is getting too big and hungry... bigger is not always better.

 

[Nithsdale]

I don't think I'll find much of a better ewe than a scotch halfbred x Suffolk.

Half breds make serious money around here.

Is that for gimmers or ewe lambs? Or both?...

Your local buyer's need to come up to Lockerbie for the Halfbred sale. It's all ewe lambs, though.

 

[Woolless]

So let's get this straight, you want our opinion on here so you can, ahem, 'progress' your friendship with this nice girl??

OK then! The breed's main opposition, and reason it's now staring rare breed status in the face, is the BFL. So the Border has to demonstrate a compelling point of difference, something positive it offers which the Blues can't. Which would be...?

 

[Woolless]

Just another thought, like the Whitebred Shorthorn, they've basically got one crossing job and if that cross goes out of favour, they're sunk.

 

[DKnD]

Would their be any truth to them being slightly tougher than the bfl?

 

[glensman]

Now then. I've gotten friendly with a lassie who breeds Borders and she's on the breed council (some of you may can maybe figure out who she is from that ).

Anyway, we were talking about the breed and how the Halfbred sales are pretty close to ending... I asked her where does the society see the breed in 10 years and what direction is it headed. Her reply was that most breeders/members are old fashioned and aren't looking beyond the Halfbred and pure sales. Change is a hard fight - which is a death knell in itself.

To get brownie points I said I'd use my contacts to see if I could come up with a new/interesting idea for the breed, or find someone doing something a bit different... so this is where you lot come in:

Does anyone know anyone else using the breed other than on Cheviots? If so, what breed ewes and what are you doing with them?

Does anyone know anyone still breeding the traditional Greyface?

I know of 1 farm in Ayrshire using the Border on Lleyns to breed his own 'Halfbred', Iv got the society trying to get him to put his sheep on their stand at this year's Scotsheep. There's also a member Iv spoken to on here who sold BorderXBeltex rams at Kelso 2 years ago to a farm in the Borders for use on SufX ewes, but he hasn't been on for a few months...

(I have suggested breeding better, tighter skins and making them a little smaller/lighter boned - but she thinks that would go down like a death in the family).

I don't like to say it but I think they're buggered. As @Ysgythan says put a bit of texel blood in (I'd add some lleyn also) to undo years of poor selection and a narrowing gene pool, close the flock book up again and you might have a sheep with some future in the maternal and hill side of things. But it's still unlikely.

 

[Nithsdale]

So let's get this straight, you want our opinion on here so you can, ahem, 'progress' your friendship with this nice girl??

OK then! The breed's main opposition, and reason it's now staring rare breed status in the face, is the BFL. So the Border has to demonstrate a compelling point of difference, something positive it offers which the Blues can't. Which would be...?

God loves a tryer...

No, I do genuinely think it can't be as simple as the BFL 'does it better' so the Border is thrown on the scrap heap. Going by those who I know who have used both, the Border is night and day hardier, as are the Halfbred lambs at birth compared to Mule. So is that a start?.. undeniable, I agree lambing % is an issue and others are commenting on maternal instincts - not a good thing for a maternal breed!

Just another thought, like the Whitebred Shorthorn, they've basically got one crossing job and if that cross goes out of favour, they're sunk.

I would have thought the Border is a more viable crossed on many breeds - hill, upland or lowland... unlike the BFL which is almost exclusively only on hill ewes? The 'opportunity cross' is therefor far greater in those terms so the possibilities are wider? But the breeders need to be more progressive/aggressive in finding that potential.

 

[Woolless]

Hardiness in lambs is something. What about the tups themselves? Hardier and longer working lives than the BFL?

 

[glensman]

Hardiness in lambs is something. What about the tups themselves? Hardier and longer working lives than the BFL?

Yes, but with more fertility issues.