Border Leicesters and their future...

[Bojangles]

North East friend was judging in Ireland. Getting a bit of abuse from one particular guy over the rail. Was doing a decent job IMO. Spectator took off his glasses and started waving them at the judge. Judge walked over and took the glasses then put them on for a second, took them off again and pulled a hanky from his pocket cleaned the lenses and handed them back to the spectator thought it was great

 

[Ysgythan]

He was obviously of the opinion that phenotype is a good indicator of a ram's breeding value. It obviously isn't, otherwise we would be breeding perfect sheep.

This thread may be about to take off

 

[Nithsdale]

 

[Ysgythan]

Oh, OK if nobody else wants to play...

He was obviously of the opinion that phenotype is a good indicator of a ram's breeding value. It obviously isn't, otherwise we would be breeding perfect sheep.

It’s currently the best indicator we have. The problem with phenotype is not the selecting for it, but not really knowing what the correct phenotype to select for is.

Add in the fact that management (in bought stock) is unknown, both because we don’t ask, and if we do we may not be told the whole truth.

EBVs are supposed to account for management but are a blunt tool on their own.

I’ve no doubt some play the recording system to advantage, and why not.

EBVs can inform phenotype selection, but not in my view as much as knowing the actual management. That’s why we don’t tend to buy pedigree ewes. It’s enough risk buying tups.

I will say though that big negative fat scores don’t suit us as we’re not on powerful land. Gimmer replacement need to do themselves following the ewes and lambs in their second summer, the big negative fat ones are less likely to.

 

[neilo]

I've made no bones about the fact that I think the showring is no place to judge the genetic merit of any animal. It is a distraction, a competition for showmanship & presentation skills and a social occasion, nothing more.

However, any judge can only judge what's put before him, on the day that they are put there. There are always some sheep in any decent sized lineup that are going to be clearly out of place, whether lacking confirmation or showing obvious (foot?) faults, etc. A judge watching the animals walk into the ring will already have a pretty good idea which animals will sit near the top end, and which near the bottom, just from that first visual appraisal. There are always a number that you really don't need to handle before putting to the bottom of the line, but do so out of courtesy, especially if it's a young breeder that needs encouragement after. A cruel judge might even make a point of sending them out of the ring or structural faults.

 

[Ysgythan]

But that’s an argument against shows not against selecting on phenotype...

 

[MRT]

But that’s an argument against shows not against selecting on phenotype...

I am not sure if I would back you or @Dry Rot to win the TTF "most likely to pick a fight with their own shadow" award 2018

 

[Ysgythan]

I am not sure if I would back you or @Dry Rot to win the TTF "most likely to pick a fight with their own shadow" award 2018

Would that be shadow boxing?

 

[neilo]

But that’s an argument against shows not against selecting on phenotype...

But I think the 'phenotype' comment above was in reference to my friend not even looking at half the sheep in a show.

 

[Gulli]

All very interesting shows are awful/great whatever.

Missing the point though

Has @Nithsdale Farmer Got his leg over yet?

 

[MRT]

Would that be shadow boxing?

I'm afraid to venture an opinion lest I be drawn into a lengthily debate regarding the definition of a shadow

 

[Dry Rot]

My objection to shows is mostly because I am interested in working animals, particularly dogs which is where showing started! What goes on between the ears is far more important to me than looks.

As I understand it, the theory behind a breed standard is that an animal that conforms to a certain specification, should be able to do the job. Dog showing has taken that nonsense to an extreme!

Phenotype obviously has a different relevance when you are going to eat the animal! But it is still important to know how much nurture contributed to what should be natural. I once had an MLC recorded flock. A few years of selection for performance by computer and they looked a right mess! The saying, "All things in moderation" springs to mind.

 

[Nithsdale]

All very interesting shows are awful/great whatever.

Missing the point though

Has @Nithsdale Farmer Got his leg over yet?

A gentleman never asks...


A lady never tells

 

[hendrebc]

That means yes

 

[Nithsdale]

That means yes

I might be bluffing

 

[hendrebc]

I might be bluffing

Well have to see. If a border leicester ram turns up in your texel cross thread then we will know your not

 

[Nithsdale]

Well have to see. If a border leicester ram turns up in your texel cross thread then we will know your not

 

[Gulli]

A gentleman never asks...


A lady never tells

I'm far from a gentleman

Can't comment on the second bit having never seen you in a dress

 

[yellowbelly]

Can't comment on the second bit having never seen you in a dress

Careful don't go tempting him to post risque pics

you've seen what happened elsewhere on the forum - we don't want @Nithsdale Farmer getting banned too

just sayin'

 

[Nithsdale]

I'm far from a gentleman

Can't comment on the second bit having never seen you in a dress

It's called a kilt...

And my legs go all the way up