Breaking the law

[Danllan]

Why did Jonathan Jones resign then?

Why haven't all his peers?

He's a remoaner who was going anyway, he decided to 'make a point' before his drift into inevitable obscurity.

 

[Farmer1001]

Why haven't all his peers?

He's a remoaner who was going anyway, he decided to 'make a point' before his drift into inevitable obscurity.

And Howard?

 

[Danllan]

And Howard?

As I wrote earlier, in re GV, sometimes we disagree with people we sometimes, or even usually, agree with. For example, your view of how Brexit is going coincides pretty much with that of Mr Tony Blair; but, I suspect, there are a great many things that he thinks and advocates which you would not agree with.

 

[wanton dwarf]

So it appears there is no doubt the law is being broken, I see the TFF faithful are defending this, but as Brexiteers from the Lords and the Tory seats are starting to kick off (ignore remainers as they don’t count), and then the US have waded in. What are we hoping to gain from this? It’s doesn’t appear to assist trade negotiations with the EU or the States, so why renege on an agreement we put our name to.

Just wonder what you "Law abiding citizens" thought of the Iraq War and the none existent WMD.

No one harmed in this "Breaking of the Law" compared to 100,000s killed, 1,000,000s made homeless and a country destroyed.. Put's it into context doesn't it ?

And yes I do think it correct for the UK to put the Northern Irish people first compared to a bit of useless paper.

 

[Ashtree]

Hmm. I’m thinking a bit more about the game Boris is playing here. I’m concluding that this is just a political hand grenade, designed to really get the attention of EU heads, and inject more momentum into the stalled process.
Ok, there has to be a spot of collateral damage along the way. Somebody is going to get a dose of Boris up the mine shaft.
So his latest plan once again revolves around building up, and then bending over his very favourite fall guys the NI Unionists as he did last year. Yes, sadly and unfortunately (for them), the reamer is placed conveniently near at hand. The empty threat of this legislation has zero chance of making it on to the statute books! It’s the Conservative Party! The Unionist tag at the end, has about as much use to Boris, as a hole in a bucket!!

 

[Raider112]

Do you have anything constructive to add to the debate?

He doesn't seem to have, I honestly think he's got even worse in the last week or two. He has an awful lot to say about something that none of us know how it will turn out, so if it turns out that all his rants were wrong I hope he has the decency to apologise for them.
The other scenario could be that he is a plant put there by the mods to increase our replies, but I doubt even a plant would dare to go as far as he does with his gloating.

 

[Tim s]

Hmm. I’m thinking a bit more about the game Boris is playing here. I’m concluding that this is just a political hand grenade, designed to really get the attention of EU heads, and inject more momentum into the stalled process.
Ok, there has to be a spot of collateral damage along the way. Somebody is going to get a dose of Boris up the mine shaft.
So his latest plan once again revolves around building up, and then bending over his very favourite fall guys the NI Unionists as he did last year. Yes, sadly and unfortunately (for them), the reamer is placed conveniently near at hand. The empty threat of this legislation has zero chance of making it on to the statute books! It’s the Conservative Party! The Unionist tag at the end, has about as much use to Boris, as a hole in a bucket!!

Ashtree and runnyegg so sad too much time too little concept of reality

 

[Farmer1001]

Just wonder what you "Law abiding citizens" thought of the Iraq War and the none existent WMD.

No one harmed in this "Breaking of the Law" compared to 100,000s killed, 1,000,000s made homeless and a country destroyed.. Put's it into context doesn't it ?

And yes I do think it correct for the UK to put the Northern Irish people first compared to a bit of useless paper.

Is Iraq is the “Illegal” threshold under which your ok with us to break the law?

 

[Farmer1001]

Ashtree and runnyegg so sad too much time too little concept of reality

Because my opinion is different to yours? But as my opinion is different to yours I wouldn’t be sold bold as to claim you have no concept of reality. FYI I think putting the all of the Uk first is honourable, I just don’t agree with the way this bit is being handled.

 

[Henarar]

He doesn't seem to have, I honestly think he's got even worse in the last week or two. He has an awful lot to say about something that none of us know how it will turn out, so if it turns out that all his rants were wrong I hope he has the decency to apologise for them.
The other scenario could be that he is a plant put there by the mods to increase our replies, but I doubt even a plant would dare to go as far as he does with his gloating.

He will probably just slope off again
And lie again about not coming back

 

[beardface]

Am I being stupid or wasn't the WA a means of progressing to an FTA. In the event of no deal we have the right to implememt/not implement the WA as we will be a sovereign state with zero input from the EU?

If breaking a treaty (the WA), is in breach of international law then surely donal should of been hauled before the judges for tearing up nafta.

 

[Hindsight]

 

[Muck Spreader]

Am I being stupid or wasn't the WA a means of progressing to an FTA. In the event of no deal we have the right to implememt/not implement the WA as we will be a sovereign state with zero input from the EU?

If breaking a treaty (the WA), is in breach of international law then surely donal should of been hauled before the judges for tearing up nafta.

They are different things, the WA was needed to deal with citizens rights, the setting a customs and regulatory border between NI and GB, monetary compensation to the EU, and what areas the ECJ is still involved in UK law etc these were all agreed by both parties and signed off.

The Trade deal is just that, what level of access UK companies will have to EU markets and visa versa. What rules will each side have to conform to, some of which have already been agreed in the WA, particularly regarding how the movement of goods in and out of NI is monitored and the ability to supply state aid to selected businesses. These are the areas that Boris is now looking to renege on.

 

[linga]

They are different things, the WA was needed to deal with citizens rights, the setting a customs and regulatory border between NI and GB, monetary compensation to the EU, and what areas the ECJ is still involved in UK law etc these were all agreed by both parties and signed off.

The Trade deal is just that, what level of access UK companies will have to EU markets and visa versa. What rules will each side have to conform to, some of which have already been agreed in the WA, particularly regarding how the movement of goods in and out of NI is monitored and the ability to supply state aid to selected businesses. These are the areas that Boris is now looking to renege on.

So some of the rules of the trade deal are included in the WA but how can you implement rules of a trade deal if there isnt a deal ?
As I understand it the changes that are being proposed will only be implemented if there is no deal.

 

[beardface]

So some of the rules of the trade deal are included in the WA but how can you implement rules of a trade deal if there isnt a deal ?
As I understand it the changes that are being proposed will only be implemented if there is no deal.

I was under the same impression. The WA was mandatory in the eyes of the EU before FTA talks could begin, but the WA could cease to apply in the event of no deal if we chose as we nearly left without one twice. Surely the internal market bill is just UK gov covering its back if the EU decide to take advantage of ambiguities in the WA, thus undermining the uk internal market. As well as allowing us to ramp up state aid to overcome corona in the event of no deal.

So the WA and FTA were intertwined. Again someone tell me if I'm missing something here.

It's blatantly clear that the current situation has been designed to hassen the FTA talks. Whether it pays off well soon see. Know doubt boris and chums know the bill won't get passed in the next 4 weeks as it will likely bounce between the commons and the Lords a couple of times, but the media storm (and hence political pressure) will continue. You have to love a bit of political theatrics.

 

[Muck Spreader]

So some of the rules of the trade deal are included in the WA but how can you implement rules of a trade deal if there isnt a deal ?
As I understand it the changes that are being proposed will only be implemented if there is no deal.

If the UK and EU agree on a comprehensive FTA there would be no requirement for the UK government to renege on the WA. However, IMO the real concern is state aid rules rather than anything else. In the WA NI is tied to EU state aid rules till 2024 in the fist instance, with the rest of the UK being tied by a more loosely defined agreement. But both would still be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ which we know Boris would be unhappy about. The funny thing is seeing a Tory government risking everything, on State Aid, a Labour stalwart.

 

[beardface]

If the UK and EU agree on a comprehensive FTA there would be no requirement for the UK government to renege on the WA. However, IMO the real concern is state aid rules rather than anything else. In the WA NI is tied to EU state aid rules till 2024 in the fist instance, with the rest of the UK being tied by a more loosely defined agreement. But both would still be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ which we know Boris would be unhappy about. The funny thing is seeing a Tory government risking everything, on State Aid, a Labour stalwart.

That's because contrary to popular belief boris is a Liberal Conservative. And state aid is the only option many countries will have in the post corona World.

 

[Farmer1001]

Right wrong or indifferent, the WA was negotiated and agreed on by both parties, this is the oven ready deal Boris told us he was ready, he was not forced to sign it neither were the EU. If it’s flawed, if the EU are in a position to “tear the UK apart” (as Gove puts it) then wtf did Boris sign it - simple, to get Brexit done and then renege if he needed to. It has Cummings written all over it.

 

[Muck Spreader]

Right wrong or indifferent, the WA was negotiated and agreed on by both parties, this is the oven ready deal Boris told us he was ready, he was not forced to sign it neither were the EU. If it’s flawed, if the EU are in a position to “tear the UK apart” (as Gove puts it) then wtf did Boris sign it - simple, to get Brexit done and then renege if he needed to. It has Cummings written all over it.

In 2017 Micheal Gove publicly talked about agreeing a deal with the EU and then just reneging on it, as well as tearing up the Good Friday agreement if necessary. They have history, and as you say Cummings sticky finger prints all over it.

 

[Ashtree]

In 2017 Micheal Gove publicly talked about agreeing a deal with the EU and then just reneging on it, as well as tearing up the Good Friday agreement if necessary. They have history, and as you say Cummings sticky finger prints all over it.

An ounce of breeding beats a ton of feeding. These Tories really are tightly bred, from a long line of perfidious so called gentry. This type of carry on is normal service to them.
Try that on in a working mans are club, or the local cattle market, you soon get your comeuppance from your own peers. Most likely in the form of a few front teeth in your boots! Proper order too.