Broken mouthed ewes on twitter

[Keepers]

Your sheep look well and are a credit to you. I must admit your exlana ewes have more shape than I imagined but their doesn’t look to be many E or U grade lambs in that photo. Certainly not at the abattoirs we would work with.

Thanks!

I haven’t got the whole hang of the “only taking taking photos of the best ones” thing

 

[yellowbelly]

I think the same when I see Herdwicks, anywhere...

There's some not far from me, on the harsh hill country of Lincolnshire.

There sure are Running at the 'nose bleed inducing' height of 200' above sea level
Mind you, it's hardly our best tatie growing land and I expect we've probably got some of the lowest lying heather in the country.........

.........but there's nowt wrong with these............

................3/4/5 crop ewes, think they've died and gone to heaven when they get here, live on nowt, spit their lambs out for fun, bags full of milk. What's not to like?
I take the point (in previous posts) about Exlanas but I guess I get a few draft Herdwicks for the price of an Exlana gimmer
Pound for pound these are probably the best paying sheep we have.
We have a few Cheviots on here too........

..........my idea was, if were going to have to clip 'em, we might as well clip some with wool that's worth something. However, draft Cheviots were a bit 'pricey' at the sale I went to so I finished up with a lot more Herdwicks. As it's turned out, all wool's worth nowt so it's not mattered anyway

 

[unlacedgecko]

There sure are Running at the 'nose bleed inducing' height of 200' above sea level
Mind you, it's hardly our best tatie growing land and I expect we've probably got some of the lowest lying heather in the country.........
View attachment 900319
.........but there's nowt wrong with these............
View attachment 900322View attachment 900323
................3/4/5 crop ewes, think they've died and gone to heaven when they get here, live on nowt, spit their lambs out for fun, bags full of milk. What's not to like?
I take the point (in previous posts) about Exlanas but I guess I get a few draft Herdwicks for the price of an Exlana gimmer
Pound for pound these are probably the best paying sheep we have.
We have a few Cheviots on here too........
View attachment 900332..........my idea was, if were going to have to clip 'em, we might as well clip some with wool that's worth something. However, draft Cheviots were a bit 'pricey' at the sale I went to so I finished up with a lot more Herdwicks. As it's turned out, all wool's worth nowt so it's not mattered anyway

You’ll struggle to beat the ROI on those girls. Grand looking lambs as well.

 

[Ysgythan]

Exactly my point, they won’t do as well under the same conditions, they need more care, more mollycoddling etc

which is fine if that’s what folk prefer to do, but I myself don’t

No, not mollycoddling at all. They can be managed to perform off grass. If your management is close the gate and balls to it, then possibly that wouldn’t suit them. But I don’t equate grassland management to mollycoddling.

 

[Nithsdale]

There sure are Running at the 'nose bleed inducing' height of 200' above sea level
Mind you, it's hardly our best tatie growing land and I expect we've probably got some of the lowest lying heather in the country.........
View attachment 900319
.........but there's nowt wrong with these............
View attachment 900322View attachment 900323
................3/4/5 crop ewes, think they've died and gone to heaven when they get here, live on nowt, spit their lambs out for fun, bags full of milk. What's not to like?
I take the point (in previous posts) about Exlanas but I guess I get a few draft Herdwicks for the price of an Exlana gimmer
Pound for pound these are probably the best paying sheep we have.
We have a few Cheviots on here too........
View attachment 900332..........my idea was, if were going to have to clip 'em, we might as well clip some with wool that's worth something. However, draft Cheviots were a bit 'pricey' at the sale I went to so I finished up with a lot more Herdwicks. As it's turned out, all wool's worth nowt so it's not mattered anyway

 

[NZDan]

The sire plays a role too. It’s the average of parents weights. Fine put a big ram on a small ewe...ah...

Yes, maybe, I've yet to actually see that in practice, except maybe for Shetlands and breeds smaller than that. The reality is amoungst the mainstream breeds there is in reality little variation in size.

 

[Rogue male]

Is it really surprising that something with a fair portion of Leicester breeding is broken mouthed at 3/4 years old? Be interesting to see what other roadbumps innovis have hit along the way but managed to keep hushed up.

 

[Moors Lad]

But anyway... back to aberfields and losing teeth

Mmm, it`s been an interesting read so far but these aberfields that took to social media seem to have taken a back seat... and this is the second prompt to get back on track..

 

[Global ovine]

Is it really surprising that something with a fair portion of Leicester breeding is broken mouthed at 3/4 years old? Be interesting to see what other roadbumps innovis have hit along the way but managed to keep hushed up.

This was certainly the case in NZ where Border Leicester crosses where once in vogue. Their progeny were more susceptible to paradontal disease (shrinkage of the gums so the incisor teeth became long and loose) in newly developed pasture land out of indigenous forest where the soil calcium to phosphorus ratio grew imbalanced pasture causing the onset of paradontal (also called periodental) disease. The Coopworth breed, selected from BL x Romney took a few decades to develop a strong mouth resembling the Romney which had less incidence on those soils. The age of clearing bush to pastoral farming has now ceased with farmers correcting the underlying mineral imbalance problem.

Regarding any other hushing up by Innovis appears to be a rather cynical statement which could be just tall poppy knocking. I would rather think that any breeder who breaks the mould and produces something different based on performance that can be measured while those sheep are under their control may occasionally hit a bump by a condition that develops later when those sheep are in a different environment outside of their control.
The true measure will be how much effort Innovis (or any other "different" breeder) puts into correcting such a problem as the NZ Coopworth breeders did successfully with paradontal disease.

 

[Ysgythan]

could be just tall poppy knocking

you might know a lot about sheep but you clearly don’t know much about Britain. This is the national sport.

 

[Northumberland]

Question.
Teeth slowly going forward over the front of the gum as they get older could be due to a nutrition issue rather than a breeding issue?

 

[Rogue male]

This was certainly the case in NZ where Border Leicester crosses where once in vogue. Their progeny were more susceptible to paradontal disease (shrinkage of the gums so the incisor teeth became long and loose) in newly developed pasture land out of indigenous forest where the soil calcium to phosphorus ratio grew imbalanced pasture causing the onset of paradontal (also called periodental) disease. The Coopworth breed, selected from BL x Romney took a few decades to develop a strong mouth resembling the Romney which had less incidence on those soils. The age of clearing bush to pastoral farming has now ceased with farmers correcting the underlying mineral imbalance problem.

Regarding any other hushing up by Innovis appears to be a rather cynical statement which could be just tall poppy knocking. I would rather think that any breeder who breaks the mould and produces something different based on performance that can be measured while those sheep are under their control may occasionally hit a bump by a condition that develops later when those sheep are in a different environment outside of their control.
The true measure will be how much effort Innovis (or any other "different" breeder) puts into correcting such a problem as the NZ Coopworth breeders did successfully with paradontal disease.

Don't particularly see how questioning the faults of genetics in someone's breeding programme is "cynical" or whatever "poppy knocking" is. Surely the whole point of this is to actually question and find flaws within whatever breed, instead of just becoming an echo chamber where all the marketing trips is believed and no criticism is allowed. Besides if I'm criticizing innovis then trying to breed functional sheep is the last thing I'd be doing it for.

 

[Al R]

Mmm, it`s been an interesting read so far but these aberfields that took to social media seem to have taken a back seat... and this is the second prompt to get back on track..

Their mostly already culled that’s why.............

 

[Ysgythan]

Question.
Teeth slowly going forward over the front of the gum as they get older could be due to a nutrition issue rather than a breeding issue?

it can be a sign of vitamin e deficiency.

 

[neilo]

Question.
Teeth slowly going forward over the front of the gum as they get older could be due to a nutrition issue rather than a breeding issue?

You’re right. Heavy concentrate feeding can tend to push sheep forward in young sheep, which often ‘pull back’ a bit once they are weaned back down to a forage ration IME.

In older sheep, or those reared on a forage, then that management effect can’t really be blamed though.

Regardless, I believe the OP was about sheep losing teeth prematurely, not being overshot.

 

[Ysgythan]

In older sheep...that management effect can’t really be blamed though.

how do you work that out? If it’s caused by a vitamin deficiency it’s because that leads to bone thinning which weakens the jaw bone causing it to elongate. This is not a deficiency often caused by a lack of food, but by too much food in an unbalanced ration.

 

[neilo]

how do you work that out? If it’s caused by a vitamin deficiency it’s because that leads to bone thinning which weakens the jaw bone causing it to elongate. This is not a deficiency often caused by a lack of food, but by too much food in an unbalanced ration.

Learn something every day. I’ve never heard of any vitamin deficiency that causes the jaw to elongate. Which vitamin would be deficient for that to happen, and which feed would be deficient or unbalanced enough to cause a problem?

 

[Ysgythan]

Learn something every day. I’ve never heard of any vitamin deficiency that causes the jaw to elongate. Which vitamin would be deficient for that to happen, and which feed would be deficient or unbalanced enough to cause a problem?

Oily food and goitrogens like brassicas inhibit selenium. It can be corrected with iodine supplementation or by avoiding that type of food. I thought this was common knowledge.

 

[Al R]

Oily food and goitrogens like brassicas inhibit selenium. It can be corrected with iodine supplementation or by avoiding that type of food. I thought this was common knowledge.

Never heard that, talking to some texel ram breeders and they said if you have a undershot/overshot jaw then feed in a round trough I know that none of those use green crops, only grass and a metric fu<kton of expensive ram cake...

 

[Ysgythan]

Never heard that, talking to some texel ram breeders and they said if you have a undershot/overshot jaw then feed in a round trough I know that none of those use green crops, only grass and a metric fu<kton of expensive ram cake...

look how much oil is in ram mix...