Bull beef ?

[Kiwi Pete]

Please put up your costings @Kiwi Pete and what the average end price/ age of the cattle are.

Would be helpful and make it easier to compare if you do it in ££s and kilos

It will sound like blatant bloody bragging and I will just halve my dollar costs to get to GBP, is about $1.93 so close enough?

Bought bulls @224 kg £370 1.7.16

Threw them in the tunnel house with the steers (70 @245 kg, £500)

Fed ad-lib silage for 85 days
Bedded on woodchip and later peastraw when scraping didnt leave it dry to lie on
Silage all grown here, mowed by me, contractors used, no fert or lime is used here.
Figure my silage cut will last at least 3 winters so I just split the total cost of that into 3:
Fuel and blades - mowing + topping- £50
Contractor costs -chop cart stack £2000

Feedout scraping bedding fuel 40hrs £100
70 cube woodchip + straw £1300

Vet/animal health £240 to treat one with freegas bloat which died later (should have put it in the freezer )

Time: 50 hours in tractor which is directly subbed from contracting but I'd charge £37.50/hr plus servicing etc say £2000

£5700 divided by 115 cattle = £49.50
Average animal £457 so costs are reasonable

Then theres depreciation on a wagon and tractor which are worth about £10k so slap £850 on top maybe?


Hopefully the cattle will fetch (worst case figures) £2.50/kg at 250kg is £625
But more hoping the schedule will stay up and be more like £720 for them on average

Whats the math, £625- £50 for direct costs and £460 leaves £115 to £200 for a margin.



I like dollars it sounds better, I work on around $450 per head without paying my tractor costs, thats why I contract out some hours.

Growth is back this year, currently around 1.3kgDLWG due to lack of rainfall.
They were going at 2.3kg in the spring on just perm. pasture and some individuals were well above that... but all have doubled their weight, mob averages just shy of 500kg lwt was hoping for better but you can't make it rain

If

If I didnt have 450 lambs eating the good stuff they would be heavier, it becomes a juggle; but hope to make £20k from the cattle job, £13 from the spring lambs, and £20k from 600 winter lambs (the big focus)
Costs as you can see are bugger all for me, I take the dog for walks and check stock, really dont spend much other than time with them - not having to meet a grid makes it so.

 

[gone up the hill]

It will sound like blatant bloody bragging and I will just halve my dollar costs to get to GBP, is about $1.93 so close enough?

Bought bulls @224 kg £370 1.7.16

Threw them in the tunnel house with the steers (70 @245 kg, £500)

Fed ad-lib silage for 85 days
Bedded on woodchip and later peastraw when scraping didnt leave it dry to lie on
Silage all grown here, mowed by me, contractors used, no fert or lime is used here.
Figure my silage cut will last at least 3 winters so I just split the total cost of that into 3:
Fuel and blades - mowing + topping- £50
Contractor costs -chop cart stack £2000

Feedout scraping bedding fuel 40hrs £100
70 cube woodchip + straw £1300

Vet/animal health £240 to treat one with freegas bloat which died later (should have put it in the freezer )

Time: 50 hours in tractor which is directly subbed from contracting but I'd charge £37.50/hr plus servicing etc say £2000

£5700 divided by 115 cattle = £49.50
Average animal £457 so costs are reasonable

Then theres depreciation on a wagon and tractor which are worth about £10k so slap £850 on top maybe?


Hopefully the cattle will fetch (worst case figures) £2.50/kg at 250kg is £625
But more hoping the schedule will stay up and be more like £720 for them on average

Whats the math, £625- £50 for direct costs and £460 leaves £115 to £200 for a margin.



I like dollars it sounds better, I work on around $450 per head without paying my tractor costs, thats why I contract out some hours.

Growth is back this year, currently around 1.3kgDLWG due to lack of rainfall.
They were going at 2.3kg in the spring on just perm. pasture and some individuals were well above that... but all have doubled their weight, mob averages just shy of 500kg lwt was hoping for better but you can't make it rain

If

If I didnt have 450 lambs eating the good stuff they would be heavier, it becomes a juggle; but hope to make £20k from the cattle job, £13 from the spring lambs, and £20k from 600 winter lambs (the big focus)
Costs as you can see are bugger all for me, I take the dog for walks and check stock, really dont spend much other than time with them - not having to meet a grid makes it so.

So no haulage/ killing charges??

No meds?

No losses?

No fencing costs?

No new tags etc?

No farm assurance costs?

 

[gone up the hill]

Oh and if you paid £500 head and only get back £625 deduct £50 costs =£75 profit/ head.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

So no haulage/ killing charges??

No meds?

No losses?

No fencing costs?

No new tags etc?

No farm assurance costs?

Oh yes I forgot cartage, the way it works over here is the processors pay cartage away so I pay cartage here is all. It was about £2.50 each, for the trucks, as both were just outside droving distance.
I was considering walking the Angus guys down from Longridge but it was just too much drama, 25 miles through native forestry, bound to have one go lame or AWOL.
But on the other points, they get homemade seaweed and apple cider vinegar for health, nothing gets wormed here, and the only farm assurance schemes I'm a part of are paid for by the Co-ops, no trouble to comply with them - certainly no additional costs incurred to comply with them... it would be if we were all-straw bedding, hence the chip.
(Not really my place to say but I feel the UK needs to re-examine the bedding issue and look at alternatives in the future)
The only possible extra cost was I needed "a chemical storage lockup" and when I point out we farm using organic principles the guy just ticked it off and wrote "n/a"
Not saying if an animal needed a course of peno I wouldn't, it is just seldom necessary because we all take our time.

I lost one steer to bloat and that one bull I pictured the other week with the blocked pizzle, both butchered on farm and actually fetched more than I get from the processor for bloody dog food

Go figure!!

The 500 quid models should be closer to £750-800

Bulls seem to be cheaper at both ends of their life

 

[gone up the hill]

Oh yes I forgot cartage, the way it works over here is the processors pay cartage away so I pay cartage here is all. It was about £2.50 each, for the trucks, as both were just outside droving distance.
I was considering walking the Angus guys down from Longridge but it was just too much drama, 25 miles through native forestry, bound to have one go lame or AWOL.
But on the other points, they get homemade seaweed and apple cider vinegar for health, nothing gets wormed here, and the only farm assurance schemes I'm a part of are paid for by the Co-ops, no trouble to comply with them - certainly no additional costs incurred to comply with them... it would be if we were all-straw bedding, hence the chip.
(Not really my place to say but I feel the UK needs to re-examine the bedding issue and look at alternatives in the future)
The only possible extra cost was I needed "a chemical storage lockup" and when I point out we farm using organic principles the guy just ticked it off and wrote "n/a"
Not saying if an animal needed a course of peno I wouldn't, it is just seldom necessary because we all take our time.

I lost one steer to bloat and that one bull I pictured the other week with the blocked pizzle, both butchered on farm and actually fetched more than I get from the processor for bloody dog food

Go figure!!

The 500 quid models should be closer to £750-800View attachment 630480
Bulls seem to be cheaper at both ends of their lifeView attachment 630486

Here we pay killing costs/ haulage.

Ref farm assurance : we have to pay a membership for it each year + you have extra costs like waste disposal/ going on rat baiting courses/ meant to have the vet out one a year to do a herd/flock health plan/ make sure you have wormed and recorded the farm cats in the meds book/ spend hours doing pointless paperwork that only the farm assurance inspector cares about/ looks at, the list is endless... do you not have any of these costs??

Oh and the transport has to be assured/ alongside the collection centre/ market etc etc, all these costs are past back to the farmer one way or another. hardly a level playing field and perhaps you can start to see why we need subs..

Oh and I forgot about the AHDB levy of £4.05p we have to pay on all cattle killed...

Oh and another cost we have is TB and testing every 90 days + the fact if you get any reactor cattle the compensation for each animal will be well below open market value.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Here we pay killing costs/ haulage.

Ref farm assurance : we have to pay a membership for it each year + you have extra costs like waste disposal/ going on rat baiting courses/ meant to have the vet out one a year to do a herd/flock health plan/ make sure you have wormed and recorded the farm cats in the meds book/ spend hours doing pointless paperwork that only the farm assurance inspector cares about/ looks at, the list is endless... do you not have any of these costs??

Oh and the transport has to be assured/ alongside the collection centre/ market etc etc, all these costs are past back to the farmer one way or another. hardly a level playing field and perhaps you can start to see why we need subs..

Oh and I forgot about the AHDB levy of £4.05p we have to pay on all cattle killed...

Oh and another cost we have is TB and testing every 90 days + the fact if you get any reactor cattle the compensation for each animal will be well below open market value.

Much different world over here.
About all I do is vaccinate and for that I simply cut the label off the back of the wee bladder and that's my record of batch number and write the dates of treatments in a book (also on the calendar)
Most of that is simply detailed in the Best OnFarm Practice sheet that you'd do anyway, allthough ratbaiting courses is a bit extreme!
Hedge stuff though, we pay all that sort of stuff simply out of choice, I like trimmed hedges as much as the next guy

And, I also think you're dead right, "they" want it to be expensive as fudge so you need rural support, basically enslaving the farming population by driving up the costs for you.
A good way to introduce some freshly minted currency into the economy, the cynic in me suggests?
But, I don't want it to end up in a sub debate GUTH, that's why I didn't really want to put up our costs but now you have them, roughly.
I aim for us to net about £250-310 per acre per year, every year, it really does have to - and although I could simply be rid of the mortgage I have alot of other stuff* going on the banks won't loan for

*sneaky cheeky barsteward

As a general holistic overview of what I aim to achieve: its really all about tweaking our systems to match what we want to sell= cheaply produced, grass-fed, beef and lamb
Which means looking at what most of the farmers do and realise they are all going in that direction, which way am I going?
And my kids, all this conventional stuff is going to be unaffordable and unsustainable and their mortgage will be much more than mine - how to tweak the profit ratio without destroying their asset in the process
"Developing futureproof systems"

--they wont even let farmers take seaweed but blame us for using soluble fert that leaches... into the sea... reduce reuse recycle

Sorry rant over

But, with those things in mind I cannot justify concentrates and stuff, feed grains have been £230 per ton here
Infrastructure and grow my own, no sir, perennials work out more efficient for us.

Anyway that explains why we usually come together on some threads - we are both on completely different waves, and probably both right

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Much different world over here.

Largely attributable to attitude it appears from the last few posts....

 

[waterbuffalofarmer]

I used to know a buffalo farmer up there who finished his bulls for beef we are due to slaughter a bull ourselves, next month

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Largely attributable to attitude it appears from the last few posts....

The options are so much different.
And the focus is on pasture performance, not some of the archaic stuff you see on the forum, where grass never gets any opportunity to perform or pay for itself!!

When you have to focus on profits alone then it alters your behaviour - when systems favour yields you have to focus on that aspect, and the returns should match that IMO they don't in the UK, for the effort you put into your farming and the time outlay it seems very thankless other than pride - and different markets too. We realise no matter what happens to these guys

They are still going to be mince, and costs reflect that.
They are just big happy commodities, money makers, and tools which which to convert the grass that grows into profit.

I really don't see that same freedom in the UK, it seems very "driven" by supermarketmentality and governmentality and the costs ramped up by that other thing we don't have here.

But neither is right or wrong, we merely adapt to our environs

 

[jackrussell101]

Much different world over here.
About all I do is vaccinate and for that I simply cut the label off the back of the wee bladder and that's my record of batch number and write the dates of treatments in a book (also on the calendar)
Most of that is simply detailed in the Best OnFarm Practice sheet that you'd do anyway, allthough ratbaiting courses is a bit extreme!
Hedge stuff though, we pay all that sort of stuff simply out of choice, I like trimmed hedges as much as the next guy

And, I also think you're dead right, "they" want it to be expensive as fudge so you need rural support, basically enslaving the farming population by driving up the costs for you.
A good way to introduce some freshly minted currency into the economy, the cynic in me suggests?
But, I don't want it to end up in a sub debate GUTH, that's why I didn't really want to put up our costs but now you have them, roughly.
I aim for us to net about £250-310 per acre per year, every year, it really does have to - and although I could simply be rid of the mortgage I have alot of other stuff* going on the banks won't loan for

*sneaky cheeky barsteward

As a general holistic overview of what I aim to achieve: its really all about tweaking our systems to match what we want to sell= cheaply produced, grass-fed, beef and lamb
Which means looking at what most of the farmers do and realise they are all going in that direction, which way am I going?
And my kids, all this conventional stuff is going to be unaffordable and unsustainable and their mortgage will be much more than mine - how to tweak the profit ratio without destroying their asset in the process
"Developing futureproof systems"

--they wont even let farmers take seaweed but blame us for using soluble fert that leaches... into the sea... reduce reuse recycle

Sorry rant over

But, with those things in mind I cannot justify concentrates and stuff, feed grains have been £230 per ton here
Infrastructure and grow my own, no sir, perennials work out more efficient for us.

Anyway that explains why we usually come together on some threads - we are both on completely different waves, and probably both right

We would aim to net around £250 to £350 beef farming here in the UK excuding subsidys. And that figure would be before rent, finance and drawings are taken off.

Our land price is £9-10k an acre, do you have a similar return on land in NZ?

 

[jackrussell101]

 

[jackrussell101]

John Nix's figures above look about in line with what most people on here have suggested...

 

[harperfarmer]

View attachment 630692

I hate to say it, but if you base all your assumptions soley on John Nix you may find you're not in business for too long.

 

[gone up the hill]

The options are so much different.
And the focus is on pasture performance, not some of the archaic stuff you see on the forum, where grass never gets any opportunity to perform or pay for itself!!

When you have to focus on profits alone then it alters your behaviour - when systems favour yields you have to focus on that aspect, and the returns should match that IMO they don't in the UK, for the effort you put into your farming and the time outlay it seems very thankless other than pride - and different markets too. We realise no matter what happens to these guysView attachment 630606
They are still going to be mince, and costs reflect that.
They are just big happy commodities, money makers, and tools which which to convert the grass that grows into profit.

I really don't see that same freedom in the UK, it seems very "driven" by supermarketmentality and governmentality and the costs ramped up by that other thing we don't have here.

But neither is right or wrong, we merely adapt to our environs

No offence kiwi pete but if we kept our cattle in the type of conditions that your bulls live in you would be kicked out of the farm assurance scheme for a starters and also would be illegal under farmed animal welfare rules and if the UK media/ welfare charitys got wind of a lot of UK cattle being housed in those conditions they would have a field day!

Another example why your costs can be much lower than ours.

Bulls are looking well BTW

 

[gone up the hill]

John Nix's figures above look about in line with what most people on here have suggested...

His figures are well out for bedding and forage for starters at current straw/ forage costs.

 

[gone up the hill]

We would aim to net around £250 to £350 beef farming here in the UK excuding subsidys. And that figure would be before rent, finance and drawings are taken off.

Our land price is £9-10k an acre, do you have a similar return on land in NZ?

You have seen the base part figures and none are showing net margins anywhere near these in your post!

I assume you are already finishing large numbers of cattle so what are you doing different to everyone else to achieve at least double the profit margin compared to what anyone else can achieve??

 

[Poorbuthappy]

No offence kiwi pete but if we kept our cattle in the type of conditions that your bulls live in you would be kicked out of the farm assurance scheme for a starters and also would be illegal under farmed animal welfare rules and if the UK media/ welfare charitys got wind of a lot of UK cattle being housed in those conditions they would have a field day!

Another example why your costs can be much lower than ours.

Bulls are looking well BTW

Poppycock, they're as clean as a whistle!

 

[gone up the hill]

Poppycock, they're as clean as a whistle!

Yep they are clean but that could be for any number of reasons!

But those conditions would not be allowed in the UK under FA rules for starters and if you kept them in those conditions in the UK for long they would get very dirty and then you would fall foul of slaughterhouse rules.

Im just pointing out the difference in standards ( not saying there is anything wrong with his cattle/ system ) between the UK and NZ thus why their costs are much lower than the UK.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Yep they are clean but that could be for any number of reasons!

But those conditions would not be allowed in the UK.

Im just pointing out the difference in standards ( not saying there is anything wrong with his cattle/ system ) between the UK and NZ thus why their costs are much lower than the UK.

What wouldn't be allowed?

 

[beefandsleep]

You have seen the base part figures and none are showing net margins anywhere near these in your post!

I assume you are already finishing large numbers of cattle so what are you doing different to everyone else to achieve at least double the profit margin compared to what anyone else can achieve??

I think he is refering to profit per acre rather than per head.