Calcium supplemeting ewes

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
May be wrong but it sounds like an issue when the lambs are growing/developing which is then showing up once they are ewes
It could be that. The smaller type are usually better sheep that have reared as ewe lambs while the bigger ones have been run dry and got too big. They are mostly a different smaller type too not just stunted because they havent grown.
I think like most things its more complicated than just onw thing being wrong. Its most likely a mix of fine boned ewes, less feeding cake, low calcium soils and 2 lambs pulling off them all adding up to calcium deficient ewes that lose their teeth. Needs sorting whatever itbis inhad to cull 1/3 of my twin rearing ewes last year :cry::cry:
 

Nithsdale

Member
Livestock Farmer
It could be that. The smaller type are usually better sheep that have reared as ewe lambs while the bigger ones have been run dry and got too big. They are mostly a different smaller type too not just stunted because they havent grown.
I think like most things its more complicated than just onw thing being wrong. Its most likely a mix of fine boned ewes, less feeding cake, low calcium soils and 2 lambs pulling off them all adding up to calcium deficient ewes that lose their teeth. Needs sorting whatever itbis inhad to cull 1/3 of my twin rearing ewes last year :cry::cry:

That is possibly it right there. You need to find where/what the deficiency is and correct it accordingly in the batch that lamb as hoggs
 

tepapa

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
North Wales
Must have been the minerals they put in the nuts that was keeping the levels up if thats what it was.
Yes the lleyn is quite fine boned especially rhe smaller ones ive had most trouble with. The bigger ones would have heavier bones than the smaller type.
Cake blends will have calcium carbonate in to supply calcium which also happens to be a handy filler as its dirt cheap and helps with the profit margin.
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
That is possibly it right there. You need to find where/what the deficiency is and correct it accordingly in the batch that lamb as hoggs
This is were individual eid recording would come in handy. Dont hink there is any hard and fast rules as to what looses its teeth and doesnt but it does tend to be the smaller ones that tend to have reared as ewe lambs but i dont have any way of knowing for sure. I think ill offer some sort of calcium for them either as limestone flour or the salt licks with calcium in them or both. The licks might be expensive but i think i need to encourage intakes my replacement rate is way too high now (n) ill get some soil and forage tests done later on to see whats what and go from there
 

Yale

Member
Livestock Farmer
It could be that. The smaller type are usually better sheep that have reared as ewe lambs while the bigger ones have been run dry and got too big. They are mostly a different smaller type too not just stunted because they havent grown.
I think like most things its more complicated than just onw thing being wrong. Its most likely a mix of fine boned ewes, less feeding cake, low calcium soils and 2 lambs pulling off them all adding up to calcium deficient ewes that lose their teeth. Needs sorting whatever itbis inhad to cull 1/3 of my twin rearing ewes last year :cry::cry:

This is where our systems vary.

We never tup our ewe lambs,we let them grow and mature unstressed.I was actually surprised that one of the worlds leading sheep expert @Global ovine advocated not lambing ewe lambs due to the reduction in performance over their lifetime and lack of financial benefit.It has been fashionable to breed from ewe lambs however I would say the ones who get away with it are mainly lowland with good body weights at tupping and do them well.

Second thing is we feed our ewes well throughout the year and you may be finding cutting back on hard feed and relying on forage is a false economy.

Hindsight is great.

Do you think you have cut back too far on bought in nutrition?
 

Nithsdale

Member
Livestock Farmer
This is were individual eid recording would come in handy. Dont hink there is any hard and fast rules as to what looses its teeth and doesnt but it does tend to be the smaller ones that tend to have reared as ewe lambs but i dont have any way of knowing for sure. I think ill offer some sort of calcium for them either as limestone flour or the salt licks with calcium in them or both. The licks might be expensive but i think i need to encourage intakes my replacement rate is way too high now (n) ill get some soil and forage tests done later on to see whats what and go from there


It might not be a hard and fast rule... but you are seeing a trend towards the ewes which lamb as hoggs.

That's the starting point (y)
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
This is where our systems vary.

We never tup our ewe lambs,we let them grow and mature unstressed.I was actually surprised that one of the worlds leading sheep expert @Global ovine advocated not lambing ewe lambs due to the reduction in performance over their lifetime and lack of financial benefit.It has been fashionable to breed from ewe lambs however I would say the ones who get away with it are mainly lowland with good body weights at tupping and do them well.

Second thing is we feed our ewes well throughout the year and you may be finding cutting back on hard feed and relying on forage is a false economy.

Hindsight is great.

Do you think you have cut back too far on bought in nutrition?
Apart from having to correct trace elements i havent seen any downsides to feeding less hard feeds but we are breeding for sheep that suit forage rearing. If anyrhing they do perform better on forage but this teeth thing has been a real pain in the arse. Im 99% sure its calcium after speaking to the vet about it just not sure how to sort it out
The ewe lambs usually do much better for their whole lives after lambing. Same performance as the biggest ones but obviously smaller so ear less. They are always well looked after after they have lambed as ewe lambs and apart from this year when we had a shockingly slow spring i dont think they have suffered at all from it.
But i do stress the size difference is as much to do with the ewes being a different type of lleyn as it is that they have reared as ewe lambs. I ised to run all big muley type lleyns and they never really took the ram very well as ewe lambs even if they had the chance the smaller type im breeding now are much more fertile but arent as big. Even the ines that dont rear as ewe lambs dont grow to be very big compared to the muley type ones i had before.
Id assumed that the losing teeth was genetic (whuch still might be a factor) and i could keep culling for it and would sort itself out that way but it seems prertt obvious to me after looking at everything that calcium deficiency is in play somewere making things worse.
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
Cake blends will have calcium carbonate in to supply calcium which also happens to be a handy filler as its dirt cheap and helps with the profit margin.
its acts as a rumen buffer,which makes the conc. safer to feed, especially when introducing them to it.
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
Apart from having to correct trace elements i havent seen any downsides to feeding less hard feeds but we are breeding for sheep that suit forage rearing. If anyrhing they do perform better on forage but this teeth thing has been a real pain in the arse. Im 99% sure its calcium after speaking to the vet about it just not sure how to sort it out
The ewe lambs usually do much better for their whole lives after lambing. Same performance as the biggest ones but obviously smaller so ear less. They are always well looked after after they have lambed as ewe lambs and apart from this year when we had a shockingly slow spring i dont think they have suffered at all from it.
But i do stress the size difference is as much to do with the ewes being a different type of lleyn as it is that they have reared as ewe lambs. I ised to run all big muley type lleyns and they never really took the ram very well as ewe lambs even if they had the chance the smaller type im breeding now are much more fertile but arent as big. Even the ines that dont rear as ewe lambs dont grow to be very big compared to the muley type ones i had before.
Id assumed that the losing teeth was genetic (whuch still might be a factor) and i could keep culling for it and would sort itself out that way but it seems prertt obvious to me after looking at everything that calcium deficiency is in play somewere making things worse.
your flock as a whole ...have you had more lambs born as compared to the past .... or even lambs sold as a very rough guide ...
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
your flock as a whole ...have you had more lambs born as compared to the past .... or even lambs sold as a very rough guide ...
More lambs born and reared per ewe yes. This is without including the ewe lambs lambs. The ewes used to rear aboit 1.4 lambs now they do 1.5ish and doing slightly better every year. Lamb liveweight at selling has stayed the same but they go ar those weights sooner. Put that down to better grass management for the lambs after weaning though. Number sold hasnt increased much though because im having to keep so many ewe lambs to replace these ewes that are prematurely losing their teeth (n)
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
More lambs born and reared per ewe yes. This is without including the ewe lambs lambs. The ewes used to rear aboit 1.4 lambs now they do 1.5ish and doing slightly better every year. Lamb liveweight at selling has stayed the same but they go ar those weights sooner. Put that down to better grass management for the lambs after weaning though. Number sold hasnt increased much though because im having to keep so many ewe lambs to replace these ewes that are prematurely losing their teeth (n)
.......the total lamb yield born (live or dead ) is bound to be linked to the ewes mineral requirement.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Apart from having to correct trace elements i havent seen any downsides to feeding less hard feeds but we are breeding for sheep that suit forage rearing. If anyrhing they do perform better on forage but this teeth thing has been a real pain in the arse. Im 99% sure its calcium after speaking to the vet about it just not sure how to sort it out
The ewe lambs usually do much better for their whole lives after lambing. Same performance as the biggest ones but obviously smaller so ear less. They are always well looked after after they have lambed as ewe lambs and apart from this year when we had a shockingly slow spring i dont think they have suffered at all from it.
But i do stress the size difference is as much to do with the ewes being a different type of lleyn as it is that they have reared as ewe lambs. I ised to run all big muley type lleyns and they never really took the ram very well as ewe lambs even if they had the chance the smaller type im breeding now are much more fertile but arent as big. Even the ines that dont rear as ewe lambs dont grow to be very big compared to the muley type ones i had before.
Id assumed that the losing teeth was genetic (whuch still might be a factor) and i could keep culling for it and would sort itself out that way but it seems prertt obvious to me after looking at everything that calcium deficiency is in play somewere making things worse.

Sorry, I'm unconvinced on the Calcium story, and would err more towards genetics. Our Highlanders have very long lasting teeth, despite zero concentrate feeding, living on roots all winter and most lambing as ewe lambs (no concs to those either). On the other hand, when we used to run various mules, fed concentrates for 6-8 weeks pre-lambing, and a few weeks afterwards, and not lambing many hoggs at all, their teeth wouldn't last at all by comparison. Some breeds, Beulahs as an example, have a reputation for losing teeth early, others less so.

You say the smaller type lleyns are the ones losing their teeth early. Presumably they are from different genetic lines to the 'mule type' ones? Could it just be co-incidence that they happen to be the most fertile and get in lamb as hoggs as well?:scratchhead:
Do you have any way of tracing the parentage of those brokers back to a particular sire(s)?
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
15161165478551129132705.jpg

This is a soil test done in 2015 in the block were the ewes that lose tjeir teeth are. Shows calcium as being deficient as well as some other things.
I dont think its just the genetics if the ewes making them more prome to losing their teeth because i never have any single rearing ewes lose their teeth.
This year i lambed inside and checked the teeth of everyrhing beforw they went out and hardly anything had bad teeth unless they were old the rest were very good. At shearing when i went through them again 1/3 of the ewes had lost some of their teeth
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
View attachment 622380
This is a soil test done in 2015 in the block were the ewes that lose tjeir teeth are. Shows calcium as being deficient as well as some other things.
I dont think its just the genetics if the ewes making them more prome to losing their teeth because i never have any single rearing ewes lose their teeth.
This year i lambed inside and checked the teeth of everyrhing beforw they went out and hardly anything had bad teeth unless they were old the rest were very good. At shearing when i went through them again 1/3 of the ewes had lost some of their teeth

That soil is so acidic that it's dissolving their teeth.:eek: Did you put any lime on after that test (which would increase available calcium too)?
 
I'e lambed on acid moor pasture and alot of poor (landlords think it' good obviously) pasture.... even hebridean had poor teeth retention. I added limestone flour to water trough on advice of vet. They would disslve an inch layer in a month. Sheep stired them themselves as they were topped up by a ballcock. Made a difference to twin lamb and growth rates. Blood samples show most of my stock is ca deficient but not as bad as when on that land. My limed land produces fast lambs of all breeds. The lime flour is a quick cheap fix. Can also be mixed into moist feeds or molasses and fed as a quick fix. I found suffolk x were more susceptible than any others to ca def
 

JD-Kid

Member
i would add geans in there too any they show poor form etc put in to a off type mob and don't keep replacments out of them
but
sheep we brought up from down south had no probs on limestone country
same gean pool and ewes here teeth wear and gapping undershot jaws etc etc started turning up 2 -3 year being here
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Yes but dad was sweettalked by the bloody 20something female rep who sold him some granulated crap i doubt it made any difference :cautious::cautious:
Will be having some (lots :rolleyes:) proper lime this year or next funds permiting (y)

The prilled stuff will actually add Calcium to the soil, just not much and it won't lift pH for long. Calcifert-S is sold without making any claims to pH rectification, just supply Ca and Sulphur (which you would benefit from too by the looks of that result).

It would be cheaper, and give a better economic response, to put lime on that land and leave any fertiliser at the merchants. Use the fertiliser money to buy the lime, or just on part of it if you need to prove the point to someone. :)
 

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