Calf will not suck cow!

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
rota vac is 'magic', we block calve dairy, 75 calves born alive, lost 2, 1 a crap calf, the other just died at 36 hrs.
We didn't do our rotavac, few years ago, cows grazing kale during the dry period, calves dopey/slow frustrating etc, and crypto hit, 90% mortality/bad calves.
poured diluted iodine down the remaining dry cows, new shed, and pens, end of problem, and we make sure every cow has a shot of rota vac, now, unless it's an odd one, calving out of pattern.
Tried all sorts of minerals, boluses, buckets, drenches, water dissolved, and always returned to DB, seem to work the best for us.
 

WMoo

Member
Livestock Farmer
I'd tend to still think it could be a Vit/Min defficiency in the respect that if a higher genetic merit bull for growth used, then possibly larger calves??, their requirement for certain vits and mins may be higher than in previous years/bulls, hence the same "dopey" response as you see in herds where Min/Vit supplementation is lacking.
Thinking out loud here, but is a bolus and lick buckets enough to cover the weight of your cows and unborn calf's requirements?
Would be worthwhile speaking to Trouw Nutrition to have a tally up of all Vit/Min inputs - they have a Vit/Min calculator called Minlink. Other companies may have the same, just speaking from my own experience.

Certainly dont want to oversupplement, however I'd be thinking about offering ad-lib dry cow powdered minerals where individual cows can intake to their requirements and offer these a minimum of 3 weeks pre calving date.
I'm speaking from the point of having suffered the same pain as you are going through at moment, hope it all works out anyway, and only adding some thoughts to the conversation.
Thanks for the info.
Still think these are different though - not big calves & not dozy or dopey at all. The current one was calved unassisted & was walking around the pen in a few minutes.
Simply refuses to suck bottle, cow or anything…

I’m confident the cows are not lacking anything - the other cows which calved that week & since then have had no bother at all. Calves all normal.

We have one more due soon to this new bull & that should prove out whether it is some genetic thing with him.
I certainly hope it isn’t though!
 

Sir loin

Member
Location
North Yorkshire
Thanks for the info.
Still think these are different though - not big calves & not dozy or dopey at all. The current one was calved unassisted & was walking around the pen in a few minutes.
Simply refuses to suck bottle, cow or anything…

I’m confident the cows are not lacking anything - the other cows which calved that week & since then have had no bother at all. Calves all normal.

We have one more due soon to this new bull & that should prove out whether it is some genetic thing with him.
I certainly hope it isn’t though!
Might these calves be blind?
 

WMoo

Member
Livestock Farmer
Might these calves be blind?
No, definitely not blind.

Just really strange. We've had suckler cows for 40 years and pedigrees of various breeds and never seen calves like this.

Thankfully that second one was stiff as a board this morning so I suppose technically it is now blind!

Glad to see the back of it to be honest but dreading the next calving in case it is the same.....
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
first loss, is sometimes the best loss, could have buggered about with it for months, and end up with a poor 'doer'. Often think something internal wrong with calf.
 

Berryhillbilly

New Member
Hey there, we had 2 calves like that last spring. The first one we tubed for ten days until one morning we walked in and caught it suckling. Got talking to a mate who had a vet try the 'madigan squeeze'. Now he like me thought it was witchcraft but swore blind it worked. A week later we had the same thing again so called our vet to come try it. It was his first time so did it purely for experience, which is highly unusual. It didn't work the first time but I didn't think he squeezed it hard enough so tried it once he was away and it really does work. It puts them into a kind of coma state and the squeeze mimics the birthing process which kicks off endorphins in the brain so when the ropes are released their instinct is to get up and suckle. There are diagrams on the Web. Hope this helps if you come across it again. Good luck. 👍
 

WMoo

Member
Livestock Farmer
Hey there, we had 2 calves like that last spring. The first one we tubed for ten days until one morning we walked in and caught it suckling. Got talking to a mate who had a vet try the 'madigan squeeze'. Now he like me thought it was witchcraft but swore blind it worked. A week later we had the same thing again so called our vet to come try it. It was his first time so did it purely for experience, which is highly unusual. It didn't work the first time but I didn't think he squeezed it hard enough so tried it once he was away and it really does work. It puts them into a kind of coma state and the squeeze mimics the birthing process which kicks off endorphins in the brain so when the ropes are released their instinct is to get up and suckle. There are diagrams on the Web. Hope this helps if you come across it again. Good luck. 👍
Thanks Berryhillbillie, someone else suggested this and we did try it on that last calf. Like you, not sure if we did it properly but made no difference.
Calf has, thankfully, expired now so we don’t have to look at it any more….

Just wait til the next one arrives & hope it’s ok 👌
 

WMoo

Member
Livestock Farmer
first loss, is sometimes the best loss, could have buggered about with it for months, and end up with a poor 'doer'. Often think something internal wrong with calf.
We think it is something internal with these calves & are just praying it’s not genetic from this bull….
 

WMoo

Member
Livestock Farmer
We have an answer to the mysterious rubbish calves -- Schmallenberg!

Apparently if the bull is infected, he can transmit Schmallenberg in the semen and it can infect the calves born.

One symptom of these calves is brain damage which can lead to an inability to suck......
Here is an extract from NADIS (National Animal Disease Information Service) on Schmallenberg.

'In newborn animals and fetal sheep, goats and cattle, the disease is associated with animals born alive or dead at term or aborted following infection of the dam. Malformations observed include bent limbs and fixed joints, which may be all limbs and spine or only some limbs or joints, brain deformities (hydraencephaly) and damage to the spinal cord. Persistent flexion/fusion of the joints (arthrogryposis or "contracted tendons") is a very common birth defect with Schmallenberg virus. Some animals are born with a normal appearance but have nervous signs such as a 'dummy' presentation (blindness, ataxia, recumbency, an inability to suck, and sometimes seizures). The fetal deformities vary depending on when infection occurred during pregnancy. In sheep there may be only one lamb out of a multiple birth affected with the others normal.'

After asking around we have found the same thing in Scotland and Ireland this year so it looks as though Schmallenberg is becoming a bigger issue than previous years potentially.

Worryingly we have no information as to when / if the bull will have stopped infecting the calves either so not sure what to do with the remaining cows.

The third calf from this bull was born a few days ago and appears similar to the previous two but is absolutely tiny so may have some other conditions as well. Guess we'll get it put down in the next day or two anyway....

Farming is always a school day, I guess!
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
smallenburgh was meant to infect 1000's of sheep/cows, proved wrong, by scientists, and faded away, and now returning ?
blue tongue, BSE, small/burg, all deemed to be the end of life, as we know it, by scientists, and they wonder why people doubt their word ??!! I think the death forecasts for BSE, by now, should have far exceeded covid deaths.
just goes to show, scientists can manipulate the figures, to guarantee future funding for their own particular type, of research.
And lets be honest, if we listened to them now, we would still be in lockdown, and the country bankrupt !! And they get quite upset, when ignored. Hardly surprising though, wonder what the next major scare will be.
Not quite fair, they do some essential work, but they work to zero tolerance, rather than risk assessment. Then you need another team, to work that out, which means, those that have to decide, face a dilemma, because whichever choice they make, is going to be wrong, for a large %
 

WMoo

Member
Livestock Farmer
smallenburgh was meant to infect 1000's of sheep/cows, proved wrong, by scientists, and faded away, and now returning ?
blue tongue, BSE, small/burg, all deemed to be the end of life, as we know it, by scientists, and they wonder why people doubt their word ??!! I think the death forecasts for BSE, by now, should have far exceeded covid deaths.
just goes to show, scientists can manipulate the figures, to guarantee future funding for their own particular type, of research.
And lets be honest, if we listened to them now, we would still be in lockdown, and the country bankrupt !! And they get quite upset, when ignored. Hardly surprising though, wonder what the next major scare will be.
Not quite fair, they do some essential work, but they work to zero tolerance, rather than risk assessment. Then you need another team, to work that out, which means, those that have to decide, face a dilemma, because whichever choice they make, is going to be wrong, for a large %
Not quite sure what you're saying here but as far as we are concerned --- get some scientists funded asap to sort Sberg out for a start!
The loss of 3 pedigree calves has been bad but a further 20 will be a disaster for us!

Similarly, I know 2 people who died from COVID19 prior to the vaccine being available & am extremely thankful for the scientists who developed the vaccine and the NHS for rolling it out so, again I'm well up for funding more scientists, not less, I'm afraid!
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Not quite sure what you're saying here but as far as we are concerned --- get some scientists funded asap to sort Sberg out for a start!
The loss of 3 pedigree calves has been bad but a further 20 will be a disaster for us!

Similarly, I know 2 people who died from COVID19 prior to the vaccine being available & am extremely thankful for the scientists who developed the vaccine and the NHS for rolling it out so, again I'm well up for funding more scientists, not less, I'm afraid!
not saying they are bad, only their forecasts have proved to err on the 'extremely high' side of caution, time and time again. People, and guvs, have to make judgements on those forecasts, which will have far reaching effects, on lives, its one thing when they are right, but their track record, isn't to accurate. Scientists sorted the vaccine out, NHS got it in, brilliant. But even now, they want severe restrictions, because it might mutate again, and to be honest, l don't think the country can afford, or want, another lock down.
 

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