calves dying

[matthew]

Easy and most accurate way to check for iodine deficiency, is to weigh the thyroid of a dead calf. **
Any bloods taken from mum now, will not show the possible deficiency which started the process in the calf and that can happen at any time during the pregnancy.

Slosh 10% iodine over the flanks of any pregnant animals to give yourself a belt and braces.

** (I meant VI centre to check, not you with a carving knife If iodine is the problem, the thyroid gland will be a few grams heavier than normal)

 

[Johngee]

One factor could be the double muscling gene (myostatin) that some of these extreme bulls carry. As I understand it the majority of Lims carry a variation of myostatin called F94L which gives a moderate increase in muscling while having no effect on calving. However some will have other variations like Q204X (also found in Charolais) and nt821 (also found in Blues Blondes & SD). These aren't too bad if there's only one copy but if an animal has two copies (ie one from the mother too) then it can lead to extreme muscle and very big calves with calving problems. Also mixing of different genes can lead to serious problems apparently.
So if a bull like this has been used on Bluex or Blondex cows there is a good chance that some calves will have two double muscle genes and have serious problems while others will calve fine. I don't know what effect these genes have on calf viability.
I think the Lim society are introducing compulsory myostatin testing of AI bulls now so that people know what genes they are carrying and make a more informed choice

 

[Durrus]

Define overdue?
My experience of lims is they will calve at 288 to 290 days on average.
That's what I expect based on breed characteristics.

Good point Ashtree, it's very difficult to get a figure for the average gestation of a Limmy anymore. Have been using Lim for 15+ years now and now have a average gestation figure of 294 days for any 3/4+ bred Limmy cows. 300 day gestations also getting more common especially for those carrying a bull calf.
Personally, I now induce all my heifers at 290 days & they'll have calved at 292 days and may go earlier for more muscled heifers carrying male calves. Rarely have issues regarding retained afterbirth's and if I do they drop them within 48 hrs anyways and get followed with a wash-out at 4 weeks

 

[Ashtree]

Good point Ashtree, it's very difficult to get a figure for the average gestation of a Limmy anymore. Have been using Lim for 15+ years now and now have a average gestation figure of 294 days for any 3/4+ bred Limmy cows. 300 day gestations also getting more common especially for those carrying a bull calf.
Personally, I now induce all my heifers at 290 days & they'll have calved at 292 days and may go earlier for more muscled heifers carrying male calves. Rarely have issues regarding retained afterbirth's and if I do they drop them within 48 hrs anyways and get followed with a wash-out at 4 weeks

I'm calving 1/2 bred and 3/4 bred lim heifers to both AI lim bull and stock lim bull @ 24 to 26 months over past four years.
Reduced silage six weeks before due supplemented with rolled oats and pre calving minerals. Only had to help one. That one was small calf delivered backwards.
290 days was max. I do also throw a shot of iodine along there backs once in a while but it's more habit than anything else. Maybe it helps.

 

[del_boy]

Was that first one definitely an Elite??

having had a closer look today whilst dehorning you might be right there!
born on time , easy calving ,is not the same as the ones we had after, the following 3 seem to represent the ebv table for the bull elite,

 

[Willy A]

I worked out my LIM stock bull a couple of years ago to 294 days gestation. He is easy calved and the odd cow goes to 300 days. Thats on a mixture of cow breeds. Dont like inducing cows. Never had much luck with it.
Used Carmorn Dauphin a couple of years ago on heifers. Would not recommend it. But very good calves.

 

[AGN76]

Well I'm gobsmacked @AGN76 if they haven't been doing their own calving surveys before. I , perhaps naively , thought that it would be common practise.

I can't see for the life of me how any company can sell semen without monitoring their own bull's calving data. How for a start would they know which bulls to keep on , and drop from , the roster?

Before I use any Genus bull I want to get calving info. from their own trials if there is any to go on. Also their calving surveys are on Holstein cows , so it's conducted on a narrower pelvic breed in general terms.

@CharcoalWally It seems to me that cogent aim at the suckler/ pedigree market where maybe a thumping calf is desired more. Genus aim more at the dairy side where an easy calving and the cow back in the tank are desired, having said that with their survey the dairy boys can often have a quality calf and easy calving. I think you and I both like to know what's coming out before it goes in

 

[AGN76]

Define overdue?
My experience of lims is they will calve at 288 to 290 days on average.
That's what I expect based on breed characteristics.

I think there are enough quotes on here talking of 290 days + to answer that 1. I've had pedigree lims at 303 and 304 days! Both calved unassisted

 

[AGN76]

This is who I use on my heifers, limo and blues.
http://www.basco.org/beef/animalmanager/animaldetails/id/7984438
Sorry I'm not as clever as @Blod to get the chart on post!
I don't think there can be any arguing with this bull for heifers (can there?)

 

[jade35]

@CharcoalWally It seems to me that cogent aim at the suckler/ pedigree market where maybe a thumping calf is desired more. Genus aim more at the dairy side where an easy calving and the cow back in the tank are desired, having said that with their survey the dairy boys can often have a quality calf and easy calving. I think you and I both like to know what's coming out before it goes in

Have used Cogent beef bulls on our dairy cows for several years. Have always gone for an easy calving bull and have used Ch, BB, Lim and AA.
We milk record and there are generally calving survey sheets to fill in for some beef and dairy calves. Of course all surveys are subjective re the size of the calf and one persons easy calving is someone else's big calf. Yes, we have had some bigger calves but in the main they have been okay. If we have an unexpectedly big calf we mention it to the rep when we see him as it makes his job easier to assess which bulls will work for different farms.

 

[Blod]

Our last stock bull, Hereford, regularly hit 282 days. Every day counts especially if you want to calve at 23 months.

 

[AGN76]

Have used Cogent beef bulls on our dairy cows for several years. Have always gone for an easy calving bull and have used Ch, BB, Lim and AA.
We milk record and there are generally calving survey sheets to fill in for some beef and dairy calves. Of course all surveys are subjective re the size of the calf and one persons easy calving is someone else's big calf. Yes, we have had some bigger calves but in the main they have been okay. If we have an unexpectedly big calf we mention it to the rep when we see him as it makes his job easier to assess which bulls will work for different farms.

How do you know they are easy calving before you use them though?

 

[S J H]

I don't think powerhouse elite has a long gestation length, I never had any problems with him. I'd have thought there was something wrong with the cows personally.

I squirt some iodine on the cows backs twice before calving, after a tip on here. We had a bad year of them being born in the bag, and haven't had the same problem since. Touch wood.

 

[S J H]

the bull was powerhouse elite, supposedly an easy calver according to cogent!

I don't think cogent actually say that it's easy calving.

http://www.cogentuk.com/bulls/cogent-beef/signature-beef/detail.php?id=63

 

[del_boy]

Was that first one definitely an Elite??

I don't think cogent actually say that it's easy calving.

http://www.cogentuk.com/bulls/cogent-beef/signature-beef/detail.php?id=63

i agree according to the ebv table but cogent advised us at the winter fair last year and we tried it, it didnt work out and we wont be using him again.

 

[S J H]

i agree according to the ebv table but cogent advised us at the winter fair last year and we tried it, it didnt work out and we wont be using him again.

If they told you that, then I'd go back to the rep.

 

[del_boy]

If they told you that, then I'd go back to the rep.

we will be doing so, vet advised blood testing the problem heifers to see if there was any deficiencies. as i mentioned before we feed minerals in winter, and lick buckets the rest of the year so we are hoping they wont be seriously low in anything hopefully