Calving Ease of Herd

[Turkish_FR]

Hey, I am amateur and I dont have cattle but I have some a few million questions.

Calving ease is substantially equated to calf size and pelvic area size. Small frame calves will be relatively small frame cows in the future and small frame cows will have relatively smaller pelvic size. So trying to improve calving ease of herd by choosing sire breeds with easy calving feature or maternal calving ease feature is useless in long term. (Please think about what I mean)

Therefore I conclude that a herd would only improve within itself and would balance itself in long term. Outside intervention such as using sperma sold by vets or genetic companies will just decrease the performance of herd, with each new intervention the herd will try to balance itself according to new genetics transferred and the disappointed herd owner will use more foreign genetics hoping he/she will have the perfect herd one day in the future.



What do you think ? Do you agree with me ? Why ? Why not ?

 

[Woolless]

Hey, I am amateur and I dont have cattle but I have some a few million questions.

Calving ease is substantially equated to calf size and pelvic area size. Small frame calves will be relatively small frame cows in the future and small frame cows will have relatively smaller pelvic size. So trying to improve calving ease of herd by choosing sire breeds with easy calving feature or maternal calving ease feature is useless in long term. (Please think about what I mean)

Therefore I conclude that a herd would only improve within itself and would balance itself in long term. Outside intervention such as using sperma sold by vets or genetic companies will just decrease the performance of herd, with each new intervention the herd will try to balance itself according to new genetics transferred and the disappointed herd owner will use more foreign genetics hoping he/she will have the perfect herd one day in the future.



What do you think ? Do you agree with me ? Why ? Why not ?

If you choose your bulls using estimated breeding values, then possible to use one with short gestation length/low birth weight, good figure for direct calving ease (how easily his calves are born) and maternal calving ease (how easily his daughters will calve). The yanks call a bull with low birth weights and high growth a 'curve bender' but they are out there. Off the top of my head, the Aberdeen Angus bull Oakchurch Duster exhibits all these traits. Google him.

 

[Turkish_FR]

If you choose your bulls using estimated breeding values, then possible to use one with short gestation length/low birth weight, good figure for direct calving ease (how easily his calves are born) and maternal calving ease (how easily his daughters will calve). The yanks call a bull with low birth weights and high growth a 'curve bender' but they are out there. Off the top of my head, the Aberdeen Angus bull Oakchurch Duster exhibits all these traits. Google him.

- Look at his table, he has above average "calving ease" feature due to smaller calf size.

- He has under average "mature cow size" feature due to smaller birth weight.

- While his daugters are under average size, how come his maternal calving ease is marked as above average ? Is it not contradictory ?

 

[Woolless]

- Look at his table, he has above average "calving ease" feature due to smaller calf size.

- He have under average "mature cow size" feature due to smaller birth weight.

- While his daugters are under average size, how come his maternal calving ease is marked as above average ? Is it not contradictory ?

Not necessarily. While those cows will be smaller, they may have a larger pelvis when mature. They will pass on his trait of low birthweight/short gestation period to their calves.

 

[Nearly]

Feeding prior to calving has a bigger effect on calf size than genetics in my experience.

 

[Turkish_FR]

Feeding prior to calving has a bigger effect on calf size than genetics in my experience.

Do you feed them more carbohydrate and low protein prior to birth for an easy calving ? or just the opposite ?

 

[tr250]

This is why salers are becoming so popular small calves big pelvis apparently

 

[unlacedgecko]

Stabilisers ?

 

[Turkish_FR]

Stabilisers ?

What do you mean ?

 

[unlacedgecko]

What do you mean ?

https://www.bigbeef.co.uk/

If you’d like to know more PM me.

 

[tinsheet]

Stabilisers ?

Black baldies, using easy calving Herefords, Angus.
Do like Stabilizers but I think your limited when selling live!

 

[beefandsleep]

As a finisher I would rather have a pure stabiliser steer than a pure saler as in my experience they have far more growth and are easily finished. Salers seem to hang around forever despite the fact they come in looking like fantastic lean hairy good framed stores. The few stabilisers I’ve calved as heifers needed no assistance and their calves grew well at 1.2 kg/day on grass and milk. They eat f all and are always well fleshed. I’m looking forward to calving them again this year. Did I mention they have very good tempers.

 

[tr250]

As a finisher I would rather have a pure stabiliser steer than a pure saler as in my experience they have far more growth and are easily finished. Salers seem to hang around forever despite the fact they come in looking like fantastic lean hairy good framed stores. The few stabilisers I’ve calved as heifers needed no assistance and their calves grew well at 1.2 kg/day on grass and milk. They eat f all and are always well fleshed. I’m looking forward to calving them again this year. Did I mention they have very good tempers.

I agree salers do tend to be leaner but they finnish at biggish weights where I think a stabiliser heifer in particular would go fat very light. And I’m not convinced a stabiliser cow will calve to a charalais like a saler will but I’m a biased saler man

 

[beefandsleep]

Yes, they finish at bigger weights but they take forever to get there. The Charolais out of salers I’ve fed have been great animals though, I’ve just been disappointed so many times by saler bullocks that I don’t touch them now.
It seems also that 400kg steers are no longer wanted.

 

[beefandsleep]

I would like to see how stabilisers get on with a Charolais bull too.

 

[tr250]

Yes, they finish at bigger weights but they take forever to get there. The Charolais out of salers I’ve fed have been great animals though, I’ve just been disappointed so many times by saler bullocks that I don’t touch them now.
It seems also that 400kg steers are no longer wanted.

We Finnish our males entire so probably a bit different as bulls. We have just bought a new saler stock bull and bought the most fleshed one we could find as it’s a problem that needs addressing in my opinion

 

[Blaithin]

Size doesn’t matter so much as shape. Many calving ease bulls are known for narrow shoulders. Doesn’t matter so much if the calf is 110 lbs if it’s shaped well to come out. be 80lbs lbs and shaped like a brick and you can have more issues than a honker with the right shape.

Mature size or smaller frame also doesn’t necessarily mean poor calving. Here Jerseys are known for their large pelvic openings and are actually used to ET Charolais calves. Despite being small framed and having small, dainty calves, they can manage some of the largest, worst calving ease calves I’ve seen.

This is why pelvic measurements are becoming more popular. You can’t judge a cow by what her frame looks like from the exterior.

Your logic that smaller frame cows will have smaller frame calves which will lead to even smaller frame adults doesn’t lend itself to the idea of a herd balancing itself. It lends itself to the fact that the cows would eventually evolve into a herd of miniatures. Without either the influx of fresh genetics or the appearance of a new genetic trait involving size the herd would continue to shrink.

Bison as a whole are larger than cattle. They also have much wider shoulders and neck than mature cattle. However their calves are small, torpedo shaped and easily spat out. This does not reflect in fragile, small framed adults.

Also a large contributing factor to calving ease and mature size is plane of nutrition. This is why populations with easy access to large amounts of food tend to be larger while sub populations - like those on islands - that have lower planes of nutrition, tend to shrink in size. They adapt to their food. If you have small framed animals and still fed them well, they won’t necessarily stay small framed and tiny. Eventually large genetics will begin expressing themselves as long as the nutrition supports it.

No isolated population will balance itself. Even if you don’t introduce new genetics yourself, Nature will do it all on its own.

 

[Turkish_FR]

Size doesn’t matter so much as shape. Many calving ease bulls are known for narrow shoulders. Doesn’t matter so much if the calf is 110 lbs if it’s shaped well to come out. be 80lbs lbs and shaped like a brick and you can have more issues than a honker with the right shape.

Calf with a narrow shoulder is going to be relatively smaller body frame cow/bull in the future compared to wider shoulder calf of similar body weight.

Mature size or smaller frame also doesn’t necessarily mean poor calving. Here Jerseys are known for their large pelvic openings and are actually used to ET Charolais calves. Despite being small framed and having small, dainty calves, they can manage some of the largest, worst calving ease calves I’ve seen.

This is why pelvic measurements are becoming more popular. You can’t judge a cow by what her frame looks like from the exterior.

If this was true, there would be genetics sold by companies that has over average easy calving feature but also has over average mature body weight feature. There is no such genetics. All easy calvers has under average mature size, is not it ?

If you have a bigger head than me, you will probably have a bigger mouth than me as well. So I think large frame cows are much more prone to have larger pelvic area. The herd owner just need to select and improve the herd in this manner instead of introducing foreign genetics to the herd.

Your logic that smaller frame cows will have smaller frame calves which will lead to even smaller frame adults doesn’t lend itself to the idea of a herd balancing itself. It lends itself to the fact that the cows would eventually evolve into a herd of miniatures. Without either the influx of fresh genetics or the appearance of a new genetic trait involving size the herd would continue to shrink.

I claim that easy calving feature will lead smaller frame cows in a herd and smaller body frame cows will still have similar rate of calving problems, you may have easy calving in F1 but there will be no change in next next generations, I believe.

Bison as a whole are larger than cattle. They also have much wider shoulders and neck than mature cattle. However their calves are small, torpedo shaped and easily spat out. This does not reflect in fragile, small framed adults.

....No isolated population will balance itself. Even if you don’t introduce new genetics yourself, Nature will do it all on its own......

Bison herds are isolated populations ! Good example for a herd balanced to an optimum.

Also a large contributing factor to calving ease and mature size is plane of nutrition. This is why populations with easy access to large amounts of food tend to be larger while sub populations - like those on islands - that have lower planes of nutrition, tend to shrink in size. They adapt to their food. If you have small framed animals and still fed them well, they won’t necessarily stay small framed and tiny. Eventually large genetics will begin expressing themselves as long as the nutrition supports it.

Secondary factor

 

[Blaithin]

Bison populations are not isolated... many people breed bison just like they would breed any other livestock.

Also your assumption that you haven’t seen any animal that has higher than average mature size because they're calving ease is faulty.

1. Just because you haven’t seen it it must not exist.
2.1 What are you considering average weight? A calving ease Chianina (massive breed btw, fairly good calving ease if I recall) will still outperform a calving ease Angus if your only comparison is directly referencing calf size vs mature size. Same could be said for most commercial Bos Indicus breeds. Known for easy calving yet massive mature animals. Talk to any Australian who has nothing to do with their station herd of Brahmans.
2.2. There has been a marked shift towards smaller cattle compared to the giant continentals that were popular at the turn of the century. A smaller cow can be more efficient and easily wean a calf 60% of her weight. A larger cow cannot. Has your research taken this shift in size of mature animal goals into consideration.

Many producers are no longer aiming for 1600lb + animals. However I can assure you with that secondary factor of feed you can get a consistent finished product of animals around 1500 lbs easily before they’re 2. Give them longer and they’d be larger.

 

[Henarar]

. You can’t judge a cow by what her frame looks like from the exterior.

this