Can low phosphate level make ewes lean?

[hubbahubba]

I have one lot of 90 mule ewes put outside with twins lambed 20th march on. Had 20 lambs off them coyple weeks back and another 20 today. Too many 44kg+ lambs are lacking flesh. They have taken a serious check and 1 in 3 is lean. All other groups of mules and texels crosses are doing fine. No worms in them as you would expect.put them in my best field of silage fuggage now, and gave a vit drench. Too many are scouring. Only thing i can think of is the field they have been in is extremely low in phosphate. They dont look ill just not fit for the ammount of grass infront of them. Could that be the reason?

 

[Jameshenry]

Make sure they have plenty of cobalt, bolus preferably , mineral drench won't last too long in them

 

[Agrivator]

I have one lot of 90 mule ewes put outside with twins lambed 20th march on. Had 20 lambs off them coyple weeks back and another 20 today. Too many 44kg+ lambs are lacking flesh. They have taken a serious check and 1 in 3 is lean. All other groups of mules and texels crosses are doing fine. No worms in them as you would expect.put them in my best field of silage fuggage now, and gave a vit drench. Too many are scouring. Only thing i can think of is the field they have been in is extremely low in phosphate. They dont look ill just not fit for the ammount of grass infront of them. Could that be the reason?

Is it the ewes or the lambs that are extremely thin. Ewes can be affected by grazing pasture with a serious Ca imbalance, and can suffer for skeletal problems ( Osteomalacia?)

 

[hubbahubba]

Is it the ewes or the lambs that are extremely thin. Ewes can be affected by grazing pasture with a serious Ca imbalance, and can suffer for skeletal problems ( Osteomalacia?)

Its some ewes that are thin. I have shifted them with there lambs. I gave a mineral drench but i see there isnt any phosphate in it. And theres only 1% in crystalix tubs. I know the field there into no is high in phosphate

 

[neilo]

When my lambs are low in Iodine, they look as if they are wormy, but FECs come back low. They have dull coats, lack flesh on their backs and dark scour just as if they were hooching with worms.
Presumably the drench you gave them will contain Iodine, in which case they will change beyond recognition within a week or two, if that's the problem (or mine do anyway). Copper deficiency, brought on by high molybdenum levels) has a similar effect here, although the scour is a lighter brown in colour. A TE drench with copper in also has similarly dramatic results, but obviously drenches don't last long (days in the case of Cobalt iirc). Response would give an indication as to whether it is a TE problem though.

I've never heard of lack of phosphate being any great problem, other than for grass & (particularly) clover growth.

 

[hubbahubba]

When my lambs are low in Iodine, they look as if they are wormy, but FECs come back low. They have dull coats, lack flesh on their backs and dark scour just as if they were hooching with worms.
Presumably the drench you gave them will contain Iodine, in which case they will change beyond recognition within a week or two, if that's the problem (or mine do anyway). Copper deficiency, brought on by high molybdenum levels) has a similar effect here, although the scour is a lighter brown in colour. A TE drench with copper in also has similarly dramatic results, but obviously drenches don't last long (days in the case of Cobalt iirc). Response would give an indication as to whether it is a TE problem though.

I've never heard of lack of phosphate being any great problem, other than for grass & (particularly) clover growth.

Yeh no clover in this particular field atall. Hopefully moving them will help quickly. I plan to sort the phosphate out in the backend, been advised trying to fix it will just grow up in the plant just now...

 

[Norfolk Hill Farmer]

When my lambs are low in Iodine, they look as if they are wormy, but FECs come back low. They have dull coats, lack flesh on their backs and dark scour just as if they were hooching with worms.
Presumably the drench you gave them will contain Iodine, in which case they will change beyond recognition within a week or two, if that's the problem (or mine do anyway). Copper deficiency, brought on by high molybdenum levels) has a similar effect here, although the scour is a lighter brown in colour. A TE drench with copper in also has similarly dramatic results, but obviously drenches don't last long (days in the case of Cobalt iirc). Response would give an indication as to whether it is a TE problem though.

I've never heard of lack of phosphate being any great problem, other than for grass & (particularly) clover growth.

Do you think drenches where the minerals are cheleated have a lasting effect ?

 

[neilo]

Do you think drenches where the minerals are cheleated have a lasting effect ?

I’ve yet to see any trials, not sponsored by the snake oil drench manufacturers, that show an6 great effect. I am very sceptical about the claims of Cobalt (in particular) lasting more than a day or so in the sheep, chelated or not. Pretty sure Selenium, Iodine & Copper are all stored for a bit longer, to varying degrees.

 

[brigadoon]

Not wanting to hijack your thread but we have a similar question, grazing lambs just not doing as well as they maybe should.

We took some soil samples a few weeks ago and they highlight various deficiencies. While the main ones are obvious and easily enough addressed what is the best way to address the Trace Element deficiencies highlighted

In particular Calcium, Sodium, Copper and Zinc

do we try to correct the soil, drench or bolus the lambs or both?View attachment Soil Analysis Post.pdf

All three fields got 2t/acre Ca Lime in 2018 and all got N, K in spring with P applied later (another story)

 

[neilo]

Not wanting to hijack your thread but we have a similar question, grazing lambs just not doing as well as they maybe should.

We took some soil samples a few weeks ago and they highlight various deficiencies. While the main ones are obvious and easily enough addressed what is the best way to address the Trace Element deficiencies highlighted

In particular Calcium, Sodium, Copper and Zinc

do we try to correct the soil, drench or bolus the lambs or both?View attachment Soil Analysis Post.pdf

All three fields got 2t/acre Ca Lime in 2018 and all got N, K in spring with P applied later (another story)

I would be wanting more information before knowing what the lambs were short of. A forage test will give you a better idea, re cobalt, Selenium, iodine levels.

Calcium & potash will be effecting grass growth, rather than the animal’s performance, so yes a soil/fert sort out. Low Sodium will be reducing intakes, and can be cheaply remedied by spreading ag salt, or lob some lump salt out.
If you can get Fibrophos, it will supply the potash, sodium, sulphur and Calcium (& others) in one go.

The lambs not performing are more likely to be other issues though, hence the need for forage and/or blood tests to see what you’re dealing with. Or spend 10p/lamb on a drench and see if you see a response. If you do, consider supplementing properly.

 

[SteveHants]

I've always understood that vitamins and minerals are excreted pretty quickly, so unless you have a severe problem that needs an instant "hit" to start remedying, you are just paying for expensive urine.

This is my rationale for using mineral licks instead.