Can TM engine fit into MF 1200....

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
I replaced the DP6 with a DP8B to be a bit kinder on the Tractor.View attachment 941404
I’ve still got that plough, although to be fair it’s hardly done any work in the last 21 years. I wish I still had the tractor, especially if it was still in that condition. View attachment 941404
Funnily enough, that is exactly what we did. But our original plough, we tried ploughing on top without the wheels in the furrow. It was ok when conditions were good, but had a nasty habit of slipping into the furrow, when it got wet.
So swamped the plough for a mounted version in furrow and it was unstoppable!
 

essexpete

Member
Location
Essex
I replaced the DP6 with a DP8B to be a bit kinder on the Tractor.View attachment 941404
I’ve still got that plough, although to be fair it’s hardly done any work in the last 21 years. I wish I still had the tractor, especially if it was still in that condition. View attachment 941404
Quite a lot hanging on the back of that I reckon! I never used the one I drove on a plough and on that farm in 1979/80 the plough was old hat and yesterday's piece of equipment. I do remember one lad, who drove it sometimes, using and old Ransomes 3f Rev and, for some reason, on heavy tight clay the 1200 seemed to struggle. Perhaps something was not set up right? The 2wd 595 PAVT could more or less match it.
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
Quite a lot hanging on the back of that I reckon! I never used the one I drove on a plough and on that farm in 1979/80 the plough was old hat and yesterday's piece of equipment. I do remember one lad, who drove it sometimes, using and old Ransomes 3f Rev and, for some reason, on heavy tight clay the 1200 seemed to struggle. Perhaps something was not set up right? The 2wd 595 PAVT could more or less match it.
Ha ha, I wished I’d kept one of my 1200’s just to pull out the 595 every time it got stuck!
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
I’m fairly certain it wouldn’t match the 1200 for grip. This was my one on a Dowdeswell DP6, it was the heavy framed version that could be extended up to 8 furrows. If I recall the plough weighed over three tonnes and the 1200 would pull it with ease through heavy Weald clay. I’d be amazed if your 5445 would pull that plough even in the easiest of soils.
View attachment 941402

Maybe. Same size tyres on the back but superior radials on the 5445. Same horsepower but more torque on the 5445. 1200 heavy on the front but probably lighter on the back, with a set of weights on the 5445 balancing it out to a more equal footing. Far stronger rear links with massively greater lift capacity on the 5445 plus a powershift so no traction lost when changing down or up in heavy going. Two or four speed PTO compared with 1000 only. You name it and the 5445 has it beat in all but looks and fuel tank capacity.

I honestly think you are looking at these old beasts with rose coloured spectacles. The 1200 would be considered a dull lifeless lump when compared to today's tractors. Especially if you compared it to a 6455 with all the Datatronic traction aids including radar slip control and lower link sensing. I bet a 1990 MF 3090 would run rings around the 1200. Leave it for dust in all conditions.
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
Quite a lot hanging on the back of that I reckon! I never used the one I drove on a plough and on that farm in 1979/80 the plough was old hat and yesterday's piece of equipment. I do remember one lad, who drove it sometimes, using and old Ransomes 3f Rev and, for some reason, on heavy tight clay the 1200 seemed to struggle. Perhaps something was not set up right? The 2wd 595 PAVT could more or less match it.
That's saying something because traction on the 595 2wd was absolutely pathetic. It was front heavy and sat on super-thin looking 7.50/18 cast centre front wheels and the deep lug Goodyear crossply 16.9/38 rears were horrendously inefficient on arable land.

Oh lord! I'm getting the shivers again and I'm bound to have nightmares tonight, if I can get to sleep at all now that that heap is in my mind. Perhaps a bottle of whiskey will help?
 
Maybe. Same size tyres on the back but superior radials on the 5445. Same horsepower but more torque on the 5445. 1200 heavy on the front but probably lighter on the back, with a set of weights on the 5445 balancing it out to a more equal footing. Far stronger rear links with massively greater lift capacity on the 5445 plus a powershift so no traction lost when changing down or up in heavy going. Two or four speed PTO compared with 1000 only. You name it and the 5445 has it beat in all but looks and fuel tank capacity.

I honestly think you are looking at these old beasts with rose coloured spectacles. The 1200 would be considered a dull lifeless lump when compared to today's tractors. Especially if you compared it to a 6455 with all the Datatronic traction aids including radar slip control and lower link sensing. I bet a 1990 MF 3090 would run rings around the 1200. Leave it for dust in all conditions.
the MF 1200 for all its faults would easily outperform your 5445,yes the 1200 lift is/was inadequate but they would easily out grip county tractors of that era which would leave your tractor for dust,the 1200 was designed to be front heavy but this would equalize when ploughing/ cultivating with the Ferguson hydraulics, you are wrong sir!! Why not get Rory day MR classic tractor to set up a trial
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
Maybe. Same size tyres on the back but superior radials on the 5445. Same horsepower but more torque on the 5445. 1200 heavy on the front but probably lighter on the back, with a set of weights on the 5445 balancing it out to a more equal footing. Far stronger rear links with massively greater lift capacity on the 5445 plus a powershift so no traction lost when changing down or up in heavy going. Two or four speed PTO compared with 1000 only. You name it and the 5445 has it beat in all but looks and fuel tank capacity.

I honestly think you are looking at these old beasts with rose coloured spectacles. The 1200 would be considered a dull lifeless lump when compared to today's tractors. Especially if you compared it to a 6455 with all the Datatronic traction aids including radar slip control and lower link sensing. I bet a 1990 MF 3090 would run rings around the 1200. Leave it for dust in all conditions.

I was only talking about the grip. Otherwise I completely agree with you, the 1200 was only good at 3 things. 1) Grip, 2) turning circle 3) had it’s hydraulic oil separate from the gearbox. Only having a 1000 pto was one of the reasons it had to go, I wanted to expand into hay making so it wasn’t very suitable. The lift capacity was terrible even though it had an assist or ram on the top of the gearbox. I wonder if Massey had made them with more options on the pto and stronger axles and linkage whether we’d have smaller articulated tractors as commonplace now
 

essexpete

Member
Location
Essex
That's saying something because traction on the 595 2wd was absolutely pathetic. It was front heavy and sat on super-thin looking 7.50/18 cast centre front wheels and the deep lug Goodyear crossply 16.9/38 rears were horrendously inefficient on arable land.

Oh lord! I'm getting the shivers again and I'm bound to have nightmares tonight, if I can get to sleep at all now that that heap is in my mind. Perhaps a bottle of whiskey will help?
TBH I never saw the 2 working immediately along side each other but they both had 3f rev Ransomes. The 1200 was not running out of grip but I remember seeming to be labouring hard. The 590 turbo and 595 both with 3 F rev and an old 165 with a 2F Rev all matched each other on some late season grade 1 land. The man on the 595 had the best ride though!
 

essexpete

Member
Location
Essex
I was only talking about the grip. Otherwise I completely agree with you, the 1200 was only good at 3 things. 1) Grip, 2) turning circle 3) had it’s hydraulic oil separate from the gearbox. Only having a 1000 pto was one of the reasons it had to go, I wanted to expand into hay making so it wasn’t very suitable. The lift capacity was terrible even though it had an assist or ram on the top of the gearbox. I wonder if Massey had made them with more options on the pto and stronger axles and linkage whether we’d have smaller articulated tractors as commonplace now
Quite something with a 6cyl turbo, 3000 type axles and a dyna shift box?
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
the MF 1200 for all its faults would easily outperform your 5445,yes the 1200 lift is/was inadequate but they would easily out grip county tractors of that era which would leave your tractor for dust,the 1200 was designed to be front heavy but this would equalize when ploughing/ cultivating with the Ferguson hydraulics, you are wrong sir!! Why not get Rory day MR classic tractor to set up a trial
My neighbour had a County 100 Super 6 then a 1174 and then a Ford 8210, each newer one better than the last . There was nothing special about the County's and some time ago he was saying that he has a very steep rocky gradient to pull a tanker from the slurry pit. With the 1174 and even the longer wheelbase 8210, which gave him an advantage, he would often run out of torque or lose traction pulling up that gradient and would need to choose a lower gear and scream up there to have enough momentum for traction and power. He was amazed that his four cylinder MF6470 would cruise up the same gradient with no issue or drama whatsoever. The 6470 basically has the same chassis as the 5445 of course and probably weighs not more than 300kgs more with the greatest weight difference coming from the 600/65-r38 wheels and tyres rather than the 16.9 42085r34, the latter which are the same size as fitted to the County 1174.
 
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Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
I was only talking about the grip. Otherwise I completely agree with you, the 1200 was only good at 3 things. 1) Grip, 2) turning circle 3) had it’s hydraulic oil separate from the gearbox. Only having a 1000 pto was one of the reasons it had to go, I wanted to expand into hay making so it wasn’t very suitable. The lift capacity was terrible even though it had an assist or ram on the top of the gearbox. I wonder if Massey had made them with more options on the pto and stronger axles and linkage whether we’d have smaller articulated tractors as commonplace now
Problem being they cobbled them together from as many existing parts and components as possible from their 100 series.
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
TBH I never saw the 2 working immediately along side each other but they both had 3f rev Ransomes. The 1200 was not running out of grip but I remember seeming to be labouring hard. The 590 turbo and 595 both with 3 F rev and an old 165 with a 2F Rev all matched each other on some late season grade 1 land. The man on the 595 had the best ride though!
I found that my JD2140 would outperform the 595 in every way you can dream of by a massive massive margin. Completely different league of tractor and performance.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
A chap I know put a 5th wheel on one and used it to pull a 15 ton slew around, took the rear crown wheel and pinion out in the end.
another chap had one with a turbo on to pull a slew round, he drove the bloody thing like he nicked it, dam did that thing ever howl, should have been pushing up near 150hp
 

MADFORMASSEY

Member
Livestock Farmer
Your choice of course but you said in your op you said “I need the power and traction for pulling heavy loads up steep hills”.

You are considering putting an engine that is renowned for having masses of torque into something 50 years old.

Doesn’t matter if it’s a 1006 Turbo, 6BT, or a Powerstar,

For a bit of a play it will be fine. Go pull those heavy loads up hills and it will fail.

Keep the engine in the thing it’s meant to be in and it’s likely to be reliable.
OK. Thanks for that.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
We had one for limespreading for a little while but it was outdated in comparison with the 290, the 290 turbo would drive past it as well, mind you that thing would drive past most things with a spreader on back in the day
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
Problem being they cobbled them together from as many existing parts and components as possible from their 100 series.

....and in those days the Mk1 ( of all Massey machines ) was useless, the Mk2 had most of the problems sorted but by then the machine didn’t have a good name and the Mk 3 ( in this case it was the 1250 ) was always the machine they should have made in the first place.
 

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