- Location
- Ceredigion
Cattle are more prone to bloat than sheep, we've had a fair bit over the years but never in the sheep
Can you have too much clover in a ley?
- Thread starter Sir loin
- Start date
- Location
- somerset
how much clover seed, should/could you include in a mix ?
looking at a hurrels seed catalogue, and others, the standard rate, for most grazing leys, seems to be 1kg/acre.
And yet, l am being told, by several organic farmers, 3 kg/ac. With a rapidly increasing importance, of leguminous N, what is the ideal rate ?
looking over our leys, there seems to be a mass of clover seedlings coming back, whether they are 'wild' or decent clover, remains to be seen.
looking at a hurrels seed catalogue, and others, the standard rate, for most grazing leys, seems to be 1kg/acre.
And yet, l am being told, by several organic farmers, 3 kg/ac. With a rapidly increasing importance, of leguminous N, what is the ideal rate ?
looking over our leys, there seems to be a mass of clover seedlings coming back, whether they are 'wild' or decent clover, remains to be seen.
- Location
- Ceredigion
About 30 % of my Hurrells customers ask for a bit more , and a lot of those will be adding Chicory now , very few mixes go out as a standard mix,quite a lot of cutting mixes going out with Clover now , especially Red
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Depends on the use it gets.
Longer rotations you can add more as there is going to be grass in with it; short rotations you have no guarantees what stage it'll be at at grazing time, so you often get lots of clover without high seedrates, and little at other times.
More continuous grazing systems, you can put in as much as you like, as it's going to be decked any time it grows.
Then there's the massive difference in thousand-seed-weights between clovers and diploid/tetraploids, other species in the mix; so "ideal" varies a lot - or at least it should, if your advisor isn't asleep at the wheel
ringi
Member
It may be time to collect data in this and cull the bulls when there calfs are at higher risk.
Eg don't use the seed mixes organic farms use unless you are also going to copy their grazing systems.
- Location
- somerset
over the years, masses of clover seed should have been added to the seed bank, we can see clover coming up, wherever there is bare soil. It is what type of clover, that appears, for cattle, the 'wild' clover, is to ground hugging, to be of use.
Going forward, l hope they start developing clovers, that start to grow earlier, and aggressively, in the spring. Certainly, noticed clover, a lot earlier this spring, with reduced N, that's why l said aggressive, to compete with grass.
perhaps l should have said, how much clover seed, can you safely include in a mix, or how high a % of clover, can a cow actually grow/milk on. Is it possible to feed 75+% clover ?
The problem with looking, 'outside of the box', to try and plan a better use of your farm, there are simply to many ideas, and to little information, about them. PRG and clover, was so so simple !
I drive past our organic neighbours r and w clover cutting mix, every day, and will admit, it looks good, a lot better than l thought, being on some very hungry sandy soils, the companion grass, was only noticeable in his 1st cut, 2nd and 3rd, looks pure clover.
l think going forward, as l don't think fert will drop back in price, there will be rapidly growing research into legumes, their importance will keep growing. I have planted several clovers, in patches this year, to see how they perform, the spring vetch, basically rubbish, but the rest, as the season has progressed, now, there is very little difference between them, for bulk. I wish l had planted some red, and white, to compare against them.
Going forward, l hope they start developing clovers, that start to grow earlier, and aggressively, in the spring. Certainly, noticed clover, a lot earlier this spring, with reduced N, that's why l said aggressive, to compete with grass.
perhaps l should have said, how much clover seed, can you safely include in a mix, or how high a % of clover, can a cow actually grow/milk on. Is it possible to feed 75+% clover ?
The problem with looking, 'outside of the box', to try and plan a better use of your farm, there are simply to many ideas, and to little information, about them. PRG and clover, was so so simple !
I drive past our organic neighbours r and w clover cutting mix, every day, and will admit, it looks good, a lot better than l thought, being on some very hungry sandy soils, the companion grass, was only noticeable in his 1st cut, 2nd and 3rd, looks pure clover.
l think going forward, as l don't think fert will drop back in price, there will be rapidly growing research into legumes, their importance will keep growing. I have planted several clovers, in patches this year, to see how they perform, the spring vetch, basically rubbish, but the rest, as the season has progressed, now, there is very little difference between them, for bulk. I wish l had planted some red, and white, to compare against them.
- Location
- Welshpool Powys
You can put as much clover as you like in a ley but it won’t thrive unless P&K levels are adequate.
Remember also soil temps need to be above about 8 degrees for success in establishment.
Remember also soil temps need to be above about 8 degrees for success in establishment.
ringi
Member
That maybe due to pass grazing systems on that field only premitting ground hugging clover to set seed.
Look at the grazing system he/she is using as there may be long recovery times to enable deeper roots. Also clover does not do well when lots of quick acting N is used as the quick release N can mess up the soil life that clover depends on.
- Location
- somerset
in dry years here, clover can die off as well, so sheds the seed, l expect most of it is from sown clover, the young seedlings tend to hug the ground, rather than go up, which makes me wonder, if wild clover.
His grazing grounds, l cannot drive by, and have a good look!
Totally agree clover doesn't compete v grass, with N, which is why l thought the clover was earlier this year, on half, or none, N this year, 1st cut/graze. If fert is going to stay at today's price, or go higher, as seems likely, short of guv intervention, highly unlikely, we will all look at ways to reduce use. This next grass/crop season will give us a truer look, at what N reduction will do, this year, will have used any residual N in the soil.
- Location
- somerset
we do leave our fym, for a year, before spreading.
most of ours is slurry now
most of ours is slurry now
Sir loin
Member
- Location
- North Yorkshire
My potash levels are low (2) but phosphate are good(4+) yet clover has taken over my ley at the expense of the ryegrasses.
- Location
- Ceredigion
Clover is strange it don't always do what you expect
ringi
Member
Slurry is mostly quick release N, a costly sepetator would allow the solids to be composted but I expect would need additional C adding.
I don't know if anyone in the UK have setup woodchip filters for slurry and then composting the woodchip.
ringi
Member
I don't know how potash levels are measured, but clover will promote soil life that can sometimes unlock what is hard to measure.
- Location
- somerset
costly enough now to spread it, without another cost added!
if, or when, we have to upgrade our slurry system, a seperator will be one of our preferred choices.
While we have to upgrade our slurry storage, with extra expense, the f###ing water boards just discharge human waste, into our rivers and seas, at the slightest excuse, and get away with it, barstewards.
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
You’d have a lot less to expensively store and spread if you had a separator, as the solids can be stored in field heaps.
Transformed our slurry handling, and it’s utilisation, when we installed ours in the early 90’s.
ringi
Member
Every time you get N runoff from spreading slurry that is more costly N you or another farmer needs to buy. Slurry being a mostly "unbound N" makes the timing to get good uptake by plants much harder then with compost.
I was thinking of something like putting 1m of woodchip in the bottom and along the sides of an old weeping wall slurry store, collecting the run of liquid to process like modem slurry. Then mix the woodchip with a loader, let it compost and have a nice stable compost to use in fields with clover etc, while using the liquid on the crops that love a well timed instant N hit. (Pure grass will also be able to be cut quicker after spreading the liquid if most solids are filtered out of the slurry.)
Given very high N prices, slurry needs to be thought of as a resource rather then a costly waste to dispose off.
- Location
- somerset
friend of ours put in a seporater, good bit of kit, and a useful way to get some cash, surprising how many bags of 'compost' he sold.You’d have a lot less to expensively store and spread if you had a separator, as the solids can be stored in field heaps.
Transformed our slurry handling, and it’s utilisation, when we installed ours in the early 90’s.
he was using it as bedding, in his cubicles, something we are not allowed to do.
because of our ######EA inspector, we are fully compliant, and not eligible for a grant yet.
We are going to try slurry bugs this winter, to see if that helps with the crust.
and it is a valuable source of nutrients, you can certainly see where you have been.
to think for years, it was treated more of a nuisance.
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