CF

Tubbylew

Member
Location
Herefordshire
I fear Boris will tell them to fuk off. He will go a massive way down the road to making agriculture ‘carbon neutral’ through eliminating the production of N and its energy requirement with the added bonus of eliminating the ruminant livestock industry allowing the natural regression of land to wilderness and the mass planting of trees to satisfy the huggers.

Who needs food? It’s not on their priority list at all. They seem to presume, in all seriousness, that it literally grows on trees.
Some folk are just destined to learn the hard way.
 

Munkul

Member
I must admit I had no idea that these levels of energy were required per tonne of fertiliser?
Playing devils advocate and I know not of an answer, but it doesn’t seem right to use that much does it ?
I know. It's crazy. But I work in industry so have to have an idea of where our raw materials come from and how they are affected.
Urea is made from CO2 and ammonia too, usually in the same plant, although I don't think Billingham produces urea now.
Ammonia is one of the most important industrial chemicals produced, as it's the feedstock for many others.

It's mind boggling to think that you're pulling gas out of the ground to convert to a different product and then spread it back on the ground... but that's exactly what we've been doing for the last hundred years. Suppose it's just a little bit different to eating plants and crapping them back out again.

Hydrocarbons were, and still are, the most condensed source of energy we can practically use. "energy density" is the right term for it. Nothing else really compares.
Unfortunately back when I was at school in early 2000's, gas was the "in" energy source. Much cleaner than coal and oil, and much "safer" than nuclear. Hence... gas turbines for electric. Hence... gas reliance.
If you really want to see mind boggling, work out your carbon footprint.... the hippies have been shouting about it for decades but really is it any wonder? On average it's 10 tonnes per person per year... Again, not volume, but sheer WEIGHT of gas.

It's an energy equation, pure and simple. Us humans like energy a LOT and we use and waste more than we can replace.

The current crunch on supply/demand has just been a bit of a wake-up call.
Things won't go back to normal unless the supply is increased by around 30% and Russia stops its stupid war, but even then, it's just delaying the inevitable. In my lifetime at least I expect to see significant change, and (IMHO) the only way to sustain our current energy use is to go nuclear.
 
Last edited:

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
I know. It's crazy. But I work in industry so have to have an idea of where our raw materials come from and how they are affected.
Urea is made from CO2 and ammonia too, usually in the same plant, although I don't think Billingham produces urea now.
Ammonia is one of the most important industrial chemicals produced, as it's the feedstock for many others.

It's mind boggling to think that you're pulling gas out of the ground to convert to a different product and then spread it back on the ground... but that's exactly what we've been doing for the last hundred years. Suppose it's just a little bit different to eating plants and crapping them back out again.

Hydrocarbons were, and still are, the most condensed source of energy we can practically use. "energy density" is the right term for it. Nothing else really compares.
Unfortunately back when I was at school in early 2000's, gas was the "in" energy source. Much cleaner than coal and oil, and much "safer" than nuclear. Hence... gas turbines for electric. Hence... gas reliance.
If you really want to see mind boggling, work out your carbon footprint.... the hippies have been shouting about it for decades but really is it any wonder? On average it's 10 tonnes per person per year... Again, not volume, but sheer WEIGHT of gas.

It's an energy equation, pure and simple. Us humans like energy a LOT and we use and waste more than we can replace.

The current crunch on supply/demand has just been a bit of a wake-up call.
Things won't go back to normal unless the supply is increased by around 30% and Russia stops its stupid war, but even then, it's just delaying the inevitable. In my lifetime at least I expect to see significant change, and (IMHO) the only way to sustain our current energy use is to go nuclear.
Plenty of coal around to turn into gas
 

Boysground

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Wiltshire
I must admit I had no idea that these levels of energy were required per tonne of fertiliser?
Playing devils advocate and I know not of an answer, but it doesn’t seem right to use that much does it ?

More than once I’ve been told that 1 of the CF plants uses more gas than Liverpool. So whatever the actual quantity it’s quite a lot.

Bg
 

DaveGrohl

Member
Location
Cumbria
I know. It's crazy. But I work in industry so have to have an idea of where our raw materials come from and how they are affected.
Urea is made from CO2 and ammonia too, usually in the same plant, although I don't think Billingham produces urea now.
Ammonia is one of the most important industrial chemicals produced, as it's the feedstock for many others.

It's mind boggling to think that you're pulling gas out of the ground to convert to a different product and then spread it back on the ground... but that's exactly what we've been doing for the last hundred years. Suppose it's just a little bit different to eating plants and crapping them back out again.

Hydrocarbons were, and still are, the most condensed source of energy we can practically use. "energy density" is the right term for it. Nothing else really compares.
Unfortunately back when I was at school in early 2000's, gas was the "in" energy source. Much cleaner than coal and oil, and much "safer" than nuclear. Hence... gas turbines for electric. Hence... gas reliance.
If you really want to see mind boggling, work out your carbon footprint.... the hippies have been shouting about it for decades but really is it any wonder? On average it's 10 tonnes per person per year... Again, not volume, but sheer WEIGHT of gas.

It's an energy equation, pure and simple. Us humans like energy a LOT and we use and waste more than we can replace.

The current crunch on supply/demand has just been a bit of a wake-up call.
Things won't go back to normal unless the supply is increased by around 30% and Russia stops its stupid war, but even then, it's just delaying the inevitable. In my lifetime at least I expect to see significant change, and (IMHO) the only way to sustain our current energy use is to go nuclear.
That is in no way similar to cows eating grass and crapping on the ground. The timescales are of different orders of magnitude, never mind the source of the carbon.
 
I know. It's crazy. But I work in industry so have to have an idea of where our raw materials come from and how they are affected.
Urea is made from CO2 and ammonia too, usually in the same plant, although I don't think Billingham produces urea now.
Ammonia is one of the most important industrial chemicals produced, as it's the feedstock for many others.

It's mind boggling to think that you're pulling gas out of the ground to convert to a different product and then spread it back on the ground... but that's exactly what we've been doing for the last hundred years. Suppose it's just a little bit different to eating plants and crapping them back out again.

Hydrocarbons were, and still are, the most condensed source of energy we can practically use. "energy density" is the right term for it. Nothing else really compares.
Unfortunately back when I was at school in early 2000's, gas was the "in" energy source. Much cleaner than coal and oil, and much "safer" than nuclear. Hence... gas turbines for electric. Hence... gas reliance.
If you really want to see mind boggling, work out your carbon footprint.... the hippies have been shouting about it for decades but really is it any wonder? On average it's 10 tonnes per person per year... Again, not volume, but sheer WEIGHT of gas.
.
It's an energy equation, pure and simple. Us humans like energy a LOT and we use and waste more than we can replace.

The current crunch on supply/demand has just been a bit of a wake-up call.
Things won't go back to normal unless the supply is increased by around 30% and Russia stops its stupid war, but even then, it's just delaying the inevitable. In my lifetime at least I expect to see significant change, and (IMHO) the only way to sustain our current energy use is to go nuclear.


And the only way the world can thrive (ie more people out of poverty) is with extensive bounteous plentiful cheap cheap electricity.

Mind talking of carbon footprints in one of my holiday lets the amount of rubbish and crap people generate in just one week can be astonishing
 

DrDunc

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Dunsyre
No it doesn't
You disagree mother nature limits population?

Perhaps in the past century or so she has been usurped by the pestilence of (Hu)Man domestication of the wild, and our wanton destruction of natural resources

But fear not that you suffer perceptual blindness, for with patience you will see the coming hunger; heatwaves, armada storms, and floods will all combine with simple sapien greed and soon you'll see the shortages of inflated price food

Hell, you might even notice the released pandemic disease that has so recently terrified the rulers of our over grown population?
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
But we are where we are. Reliance on fossil fuel based N can’t be reduced overnight.
We could move to more N fixing legumes in our diets maybe. We could use clover leys and livestock or bring back more sewage. It will all take time and during that time and thereafter we will still be competing with imports from countries with plentiful supplies of fossil based nitrate. Such a benign approach would probably also halve my personal income but my living costs keep rising.
So how’s it going to pan out? Not sure I’m that willing to put on the hair shirt while others are still happy to burn 150 gallons of kero to go to a pee up in Ibiza or have 10 kids on benefits.
That would make me a mug wouldn’t it?
 

DrDunc

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Dunsyre
But we are where we are. Reliance on fossil fuel based N can’t be reduced overnight.
We could move to more N fixing legumes in our diets maybe. We could use clover leys and livestock or bring back more sewage. It will all take time and during that time and thereafter we will still be competing with imports from countries with plentiful supplies of fossil based nitrate. Such a benign approach would probably also halve my personal income but my living costs keep rising.
So how’s it going to pan out? Not sure I’m that willing to put on the hair shirt while others are still happy to burn 150 gallons of kero to go to a pee up in Ibiza or have 10 kids on benefits.
That would make me a mug wouldn’t it?
Unfortunately we are all going to have to self flagellate in the coming turmoil.

For many big businesses manufacturing primary produce, be it horn or hoof, little will alter immediately while commodity inflation keeps pace with fossil fuel

The hundred quid social security benefit beach pish up will be the first casualty as belts are tightened, with likely Ryan air being one of the first "spectacular" demises

Those of us nearer to peasant proportions of farming have enjoyed a simple existence for a year or three now; subsidised comfortably to farm out machinery work to contractors, and feed procured in bags from a mill

Will we carry on with headlong pursuit of profit? Carrying us further down the destructive river sluggish with pollution from economies of scale mega farms?

Upland hill farms such as my own supported employment of three families, provided profit for reinvestment, and fed the nation barely more than a generation ago

Population explosion fed from the fossil fuel tit has turned the large family farm of yesterday into the one man croft existence of the very near future

Whether radical change occurs in our industry, and a return to more sustainable, dare I say, regenerative farming methods occur, it will be down to our politicians to decide. It is unfortunate that the greed for profit and popularity they continue to exhibit does not bode well for the required policy direction change that is needed for many of us, if we are to adapt sufficiently, and survive the cull
 
You disagree mother nature limits population?

Perhaps in the past century or so she has been usurped by the pestilence of (Hu)Man domestication of the wild, and our wanton destruction of natural resources

But fear not that you suffer perceptual blindness, for with patience you will see the coming hunger; heatwaves, armada storms, and floods will all combine with simple sapien greed and soon you'll see the shortages of inflated price food

Hell, you might even notice the released pandemic disease that has so recently terrified the rulers of our over grown population?

I don't even believe in "mother nature"

Any concept that there is some kind of personification of natural process' is childish.

The doomesday may come but life for the majority of people has never been better, what we have probably got off kilter and it will re-correct itself is that using the world as a just-in-time production line has its drawbacks. But in my view the agricultural revolution has so transformed lives I don't think we will go back to mass population loss.
 

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Man fined £300 for bonfire-related waste offences

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Written by William Kellett from Agriland

court-640x360.jpg
A man has pleaded guilty at Newtownards Magistrates’ Court to waste offences relating to a bonfire next to the electrical sub-station on the Circular Road in Newtownards, Co. Down.

Gareth Gill (51) of Abbot’s Walk, Newtownards pleaded guilty to two charges under the Waste and Contaminated Land (Northern Ireland) Order 1997, for which he was fined £150 each and ordered to pay a £15 offender’s levy

On June 25, 2018, PSNI officers went to Gill’s yard, where they found a large amount of waste consisting of scrap wood, pallets, carpet and underlay.

Discussion with Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) officers confirmed the site...
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