Charging Utilities for My time?

[steveR]

................... and you want us to give you advice for free !!?!

Nah, it's for the common good, as we will all start taking them on....!!

 

[blackisleboy]

Of course you should charge for your time. And the time of any business partners you discuss the work with. And don't undersell yourself.
We do not let any new activities other than emergency repairs take place now without a heads of terms and contractual agreement. Have been stung too many times in the past - (eg job will need an ATV and take 3 days - 3 months later and about ten vehicles per day damaging grass and leaving gates open...). Within this our terms are well defined - for example if they touch a fence then they pay to replace from strainer to strainer. They don't like it, but if it is the only way they get access they will give in.

Get yourself a good agent too, they will pay for it and he will get you more 'reward' for the disruption caused. In most cases the agent gets more out of the job than we do, but there is no way we would know how far to push the utilities companies without professional help. But make sure it is a knowledgeable hard faced agent!

 

[steveR]

What does this sound like as a first draft?

Dear Ms xxxx

Ref: xxxx

I am in receipt of your letter of 11 May regarding the proposed works at xxx.xxx.

Before responding in any detail to your letter, my Terms for handling this matter in the initial stage are as follows:

My time will be charged at £50/hour with a minimum billing unit of 15 minutes, for each and every call, meeting, or written communication with yourself, or any agent or representative of Fisher German or STW.

In the event of any works or activity taking place in the future that requires my retaining a Land Agent to handle matters relating to the above proposed project, the charges detailed will also include any meeting and/or communication with any Land Agent working on my behalf.

I would appreciate your acceptance of these terms prior to any further response from myself

--
Steve R

 

[Highland Mule]

What does this sound like as a first draft?

Dear Ms xxxx

Ref: xxxx

I am in receipt of your letter of 11 May regarding the proposed works at xxx.xxx.

Before responding in any detail to your letter, my Terms for handling this matter in the initial stage are as follows:

My time will be charged at £50/hour with a minimum billing unit of 15 minutes, for each and every call, meeting, or written communication with yourself, or any agent or representative of Fisher German or STW.

In the event of any works or activity taking place in the future that requires my retaining a Land Agent to handle matters relating to the above proposed project, the charges detailed will also include any meeting and/or communication with any Land Agent working on my behalf.

I would appreciate your acceptance of these terms prior to any further response from myself

--
Steve R

Good to me. Although it can be fun to wait until the end and hit them with the bill when they have the equipment on the ground - if you have confidence it’s going ahead.

 

[steveR]

Good to me. Although it can be fun to wait until the end and hit them with the bill when they have the equipment on the ground - if you have confidence it’s going ahead.

Well, it seemed fairer to give some warning to the Agents at least... After all, they will have to pass on the Bill to the client

No idea at quite what they want from me, if anything. It is more the attitude that bugs me!

 

[Goweresque]

No idea at quite what they want from me, if anything. It is more the attitude that bugs me!

I feel exactly the same. I'm dealing with Thames Water at the moment, and its the arrogance that gets to me, how they just expect you to drop everything and dance to their tune. And they don't like it when you push back. If the utility companies stopped being such a-holes towards landowners and were prepared to balance their needs against the farmers needs over a longer period I'm sure that they would get far more co-operation and efficient project outcomes as a result. But as it is there's never a 2 way street, its all on their terms only. If the landowner wants something done then its always 100% commercial terms, yet they expect landowners to allow them favours all the time. There's never any reciprocation. Image how much more favourably landowners would react if the approach was more something along the lines of 'We need to do this asap, we realise its going to be a big disruption for you, so if there's anything we can do for you, such as moving poles or putting lines underground, or new or upgraded supplies, please let us know, we'll look at what we can do to help'.

 

[Short_Angus]

I'm dealing with Scottish Water at the moment, my agent charges £45 an hour for my time. I believe the agent charges £85 for their time.
Scottish Water have Savilles working for them.

 

[Steevo]

I feel exactly the same. I'm dealing with Thames Water at the moment, and its the arrogance that gets to me, how they just expect you to drop everything and dance to their tune. And they don't like it when you push back. If the utility companies stopped being such a-holes towards landowners and were prepared to balance their needs against the farmers needs over a longer period I'm sure that they would get far more co-operation and efficient project outcomes as a result. But as it is there's never a 2 way street, its all on their terms only. If the landowner wants something done then its always 100% commercial terms, yet they expect landowners to allow them favours all the time. There's never any reciprocation. Image how much more favourably landowners would react if the approach was more something along the lines of 'We need to do this asap, we realise its going to be a big disruption for you, so if there's anything we can do for you, such as moving poles or putting lines underground, or new or upgraded supplies, please let us know, we'll look at what we can do to help'.

This is why my default answer to almost anything involving utilities, wayleaves etc. is usually no.

David Richardson's opinion piece in this week's FW seemed rather timely having read this thread the last couple of days.

 

[AJ123]

What does this sound like as a first draft?

Dear Ms xxxx

Ref: xxxx

I am in receipt of your letter of 11 May regarding the proposed works at xxx.xxx.

Before responding in any detail to your letter, my Terms for handling this matter in the initial stage are as follows:

My time will be charged at £50/hour with a minimum billing unit of 15 minutes, for each and every call, meeting, or written communication with yourself, or any agent or representative of Fisher German or STW.

In the event of any works or activity taking place in the future that requires my retaining a Land Agent to handle matters relating to the above proposed project, the charges detailed will also include any meeting and/or communication with any Land Agent working on my behalf.

I would appreciate your acceptance of these terms prior to any further response from myself

--
Steve R

That is too cheap. You are the managing director of your business with other time critical activities to be getting on with. You wouldn’t get their MD for 50/hour so why should they get you? I would open at £150. That is still less than an agent.

 

[Forkdriver]

There's nothing set down as to what is reasonable, and an argument is sometimes made that as you are the manager, your time is already covered. Hourly rates based on annual income don't work either if you have made a loss. Try to find a compromise that is by custom and practice, otherwise at some point the acquiring authority can seek legal access. Most agents action is to reach agreement as compulsory powers are there for a reason.
I know of some agents and farmers who object to everything on principle. If there is no reasonable alternative scheme available it will happen, like it or not.

 

[steveR]

This is why my default answer to almost anything involving utilities, wayleaves etc. is usually no.

David RIchardson's opinion piece in this week's FW seemed rather timely having read this thread the last couple of days.

What had he got to say?

 

[steveR]

I feel exactly the same. I'm dealing with Thames Water at the moment, and its the arrogance that gets to me, how they just expect you to drop everything and dance to their tune. And they don't like it when you push back. If the utility companies stopped being such a-holes towards landowners and were prepared to balance their needs against the farmers needs over a longer period I'm sure that they would get far more co-operation and efficient project outcomes as a result. But as it is there's never a 2 way street, its all on their terms only. If the landowner wants something done then its always 100% commercial terms, yet they expect landowners to allow them favours all the time. There's never any reciprocation. Image how much more favourably landowners would react if the approach was more something along the lines of 'We need to do this asap, we realise its going to be a big disruption for you, so if there's anything we can do for you, such as moving poles or putting lines underground, or new or upgraded supplies, please let us know, we'll look at what we can do to help'.

Talking my language ...

I actually find WPD locally to be pretty decent, as long as their Agents are kept out of the mix... As soon as they come onboard, I do the same and get my Big Stick out too....

Other outfits are less well thought of. Openreach are tossers... IMO, of course

 

[steveR]

That is too cheap. You are the managing director of your business with other time critical activities to be getting on with. You wouldn’t get their MD for 50/hour so why should they get you? I would open at £150. That is still less than an agent.

Point.....

I was reviewing the £50/hr suggestion in my mind today, and thought that it was not steep.

£150, might stretch it... in my own mind

 

[Steevo]

What had he got to say?

 

[Steevo]

That is too cheap. You are the managing director of your business with other time critical activities to be getting on with. You wouldn’t get their MD for 50/hour so why should they get you? I would open at £150. That is still less than an agent.

There's nothing set down as to what is reasonable, and an argument is sometimes made that as you are the manager, your time is already covered.

I think the suggestion your time is already covered is madness. Most farmers lives are full enough as things are - time spent having to sort this out is either taking your eye off the ball of doing what you should be doing.....or the extra time needing to be found at short notice to sort things like this eats into evenings, weekends and other "free" time.

What is THAT time worth?

 

[Flat 10]

I did him a disservice, i thought it would be another i'm depressed about brexit article. However the cheery lady sheep farmer managed to get it in again.

 

[steveR]

View attachment 961238

We have 3 major foul sewers, a large storm water sewer and one open storm water drain through about 70ha of the "old" farm. 3 have been put in in my time and I have dealt with the Contractors and Agents each time. I fully empathise with Richardson and his comments and complaints.

The only way with the cowboy contractors is to totally fence the line of the works and restrict ALL movements to that area with huge penalties built in, for any breach of the access agreement. I found a dated photograph of a signwritten service truck on my farm lane in breach of the agreement, along with a written warning that another breach would see the penalty clause of the best part of 50K worth of works, focused the mind wonderfully.

The twattish Site Manager went ballistic at me and I suggested to the Contractor Agent that he should be removed from the site as he was incapable of controlling his workforce....

No more breaches again in 10 months...

 

[steveR]

There's nothing set down as to what is reasonable, and an argument is sometimes made that as you are the manager, your time is already covered. Hourly rates based on annual income don't work either if you have made a loss. Try to find a compromise that is by custom and practice, otherwise at some point the acquiring authority can seek legal access. Most agents action is to reach agreement as compulsory powers are there for a reason.
I know of some agents and farmers who object to everything on principle. If there is no reasonable alternative scheme available it will happen, like it or not.

If I am meeting with Contractors or Agents to achieve and outcome that benefits me, your suggestion has merit, but when it is to allow works to be carried out that will be just the opposite to me, my business and my land, I am afraid I must disagree with the argument you suggest.

I will see what the Agent from FG has to say...

 

[curlietailz]

I’m afraid I won’t talk to anyone
It all goes through the Agent
And the other party pays all reasonable expenses agreed at the outset
Burnt before
Get an Agent onboard

We have just about every utility going across our land and almost every month someone wants to come and dig up somewhere

good thing is they do pay well

 

[steveR]

I’m afraid I won’t talk to anyone
It all goes through the Agent
And the other party pays all reasonable expenses agreed at the outset
Burnt before
Get an Agent onboard

At this stage, an Agent is not required, they just want an answer to some initial queries.

If it steps up, I appoint and Agent and will charge them for my calls and meetings with him too!