Cheaper Generics

[Refco]

I'm currently receiving serviced agronomy, and it would be fair to say that I'm getting a little bit disillusioned by having big cheques go out and only little cheques come in.

So my question is three fold:-

a) are generic products definately cheaper,
b) can one farm profitably using only generic products, and
c) is there a list of generic products somewhere with an idiots guide to what to use them for?

Thanks in advance.

 

[David.]

Some and some, through an agronomy group like TAG you get a feel for what is good or not.Increasingly the some of major manufacturers seem to be making their own generics on out of patent products.

 

[franklin]

a) yup.
b) You can improve your profitability substituting generics where possible - ie there are some things that you cannoy get as a generic / parallel.
c) not really. It comes down to your level of knowledge. If you are not BASIS/FACTS qualified then you will still need an agronomist so:

All would become much cleared after you sack your serviced agronomist and replace with independent, or get the qualifications yourself. You can see very easily if you have a look at what you have used over the year - ask your agronomist to print you off a list of all the products you have used over the year. A lot of the fancy wetters / adjuvants are high % products. You will also see if they have sold you lots of exclusive stuff - do you use things like Boogie xPro rather than Aviator? Do you use a lot of spiroxamine products? If you use things like Axial / Adigor you will find the equivalent parallel inport maybe 15% cheaper.

So the answer is also threefold:

1) Are you happy that your agronomist is working for you, rather than for his company?
2) Are you happy to accept that some of the things you have been using may not have been providing value for money?
3) Are you prepared to dump someone you may consider a friend / have had on the farm a long time, and replace with someone new who might do things quite differently / not get you lunch in a fancy tent at Cereals?

 

[Happy]

a) yup.
So the answer is also threefold:

1) Are you happy that your agronomist is working for you, rather than for his company?
2) Are you happy to accept that some of the things you have been using may not have been providing value for money?
3) Are you prepared to dump someone you may consider a friend / have had on the farm a long time, and replace with someone new who might do things quite differently / not get you lunch in a fancy tent at Cereals?

Think answer 3 is the one holding many back.
They've had the same agronomist for years and consider them a friend. Many of these supply agronomists could well have gone through 2 or 3 different employers in their job as the company they work for has been swallowed up by an ever bigger one until the point we are at now.

Let him know you know you are possibly having your leg lifted and that you want him to supply what you want not what head office are telling him he has to sell. If he keep punting you Phoenix rather than Bravo, and weaker than standard SDHI/triazole mixtures with a heap of unrequired mildew erradicant in them then it's time to say goodbye.

 

[franklin]

I think 3 needs modifying, as in reality I think the sons who sit spraying all the stuff out are the ones keen to change, but as the agronomist is *dads* friend and *dad* still signs the cheques then at the end of the day thats the problem.

You can always compare your sprays with the prices on here, or take your spray cost list to a local buying group and ask them if you are being shafted.

Independent agronomist / get yourself qualified / join buying group = save £££.

 

[rob1]

C. Yes buy the uk pesticide guide, it has an index with all trade names which links to the chems in it which lists all products that are the same. Dont need to buy a new copy plenty on ebay a year old. I usually buy a new one every other year . Then join tag amazed how much info i get from them, have parted company with agrii and doing it all myself and buying through a group, plenty of training about to learn more if you want, going on a wheat disease course with bill clark in march.

 

[Andy26]

Re:3, if the Agronomist was a real friend, he'd have a quiet word in your ear and suggest you go independent and use a buying group.
The distributors are quite happy for their salesman, sorry agronomist, to build a friendship as this loyalty can then be utilised to sell over priced and un-needed products.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's how it is. Oh yes, but my agronomists different, is the usual chesnut rolled out.

Whilst my high horse is out, its time that BASIS registration required you to be impartial, as it is, its a cosy little cartel. If anyone has sat their BASIS exam they will know the Viva panel is usually made up of distributor agronomists etc.

On the original topic, yes generics ahould save you plenty, with a basic WW spring programme built on generic CCC, Chlorothalonil, Expoxiconazole, flupoxyr, metsulfuron-methyl etc.

 

[rob1]

Re:3,

On the original topic, yes generics ahould save you plenty, with a basic WW spring programme built on generic CCC, Chlorothalonil, Expoxiconazole, flupoxyr, metsulfuron-methyl etc.

Perhaps the chem companies want to make it sound more complicated than it should be, herbicides arent that difficult as most we use at full rates especially BG ones, its all this dose cutting of expensive fungicides that can get difficult, perhaps using generic "old" fashioned chems at a full rate would do just as good a job and for less money, @warksfarmer has tried and it works for him he says

 

[Clive]

rare my sprayer driver sees a branded product

 

[Against_the_grain]

If you are interested in getting stuck in regarding agronomy/crop production I cannot see any advantage whatsoever to being serviced. If on the other hand you are after an easier life or have other things which take your time up then serviced agronomy is very convenient. Even than an Indi agronomist would still do the job and be cheaper.

Some generic products you have to be careful of but most are perfectly fine. Wouldnt skimp on certain things though..

 

[SilliamWhale]

Perhaps the chem companies want to make it sound more complicated than it should be, herbicides arent that difficult as most we use at full rates especially BG ones, its all this dose cutting of expensive fungicides that can get difficult, perhaps using generic "old" fashioned chems at a full rate would do just as good a job and for less money, @warksfarmer has tried and it works for him he says

People seem to say timing of chemical is more important ie a well timed old one is better than a less well timed sdhi?

 

[rob1]

People seem to say timing of chemical is more important ie a well timed old one is better than a less well timed sdhi?

It seems to me that most of the new ones are protectant rather than curative so timing must be crucial

 

[SilliamWhale]

It seems to me that most of the new ones are protectant rather than curative so timing must be crucial

I thought it was other way around?

 

[Refco]

Thanks for your input chaps, all appreciated.

To come back to Static with his comments:-

a) I think that my agronomist does try to help me, but ultimately I can't help but feel that he is working for the distributor at the end of the day.

b) Am I happy to accept that I'm having my leg lifted? It would be fair to say that I accept the fact, but I'm not all too happy about it.

c) Would I be prepared to dump my agronomist? Yes and No. Yes, in so far that it's me that's running my show (not my Dad or other partners etc), but no in so far as I have built up a good relationship with him, which I do value.

What I need to do is build up a bit of knowledge of what scope there is with cheaper sprays and then be in a position to challenge my man as to what to spray on.
I wouldn't be scared to go it alone, but it's just a bit too soon at the moment.

Do you need to be BASIS/FACTS qualified to do your own agronomy? I was under the impression that you only need to be if you walk other peoples crops.

Rob1, I'll have a peek at ebay for the uk pesticide guide.

 

[franklin]

Its a good plan. I have a distributor agronomist, as the foot work he does and the paperwork is good for the £/ac. But I get the chem myself of through a buying group and most importantly - he knows that I know my stuff. So we use a lot of generic teb and epoxiconazle; plenty of parallels instead of Axial for example; generics almost all the time. The only "proper" ones we tend to use are the stuff like Atlantis. It's more of my time keeping track of the multiple names that the same chem compnay uses for essentially the same product. Its sometimes the case where he can only supply me with certain things, so the choice then is to send them back and replace from elsewhere, or negociate a friendly rebate.

Try posting some prices in the chem price tracker. In the words of Jim Bowen "here's what you could have won".

 

[Brisel]

A) Yes. Almost always cheaper. Sometimes they aren't as well formulated but I have never found this to be a problem. There are poor quality products about but I have never come across any yet.
B) Mostly. Some of the better products are still on patent but mostly you can live without branded stuff.
C) I run Gatekeeper with the Sentinel module. It has a search facility so you can seek alternatives & readily see ingredients. The UK Pesticide Guide isn't a bad start & is way cheaper than Sentinel but it is out of date before it is even published.

I have found that joining a buying group has been a great way of getting better prices & reliable products. An independent agronomist who has no interest in selling chemicals helps too.

 

[Woodlander]

The UK Pesticide Guide isn't a bad start & is way cheaper than Sentinel but it is out of date before it is even published.

Too right. The CRD website databases https://secure.pesticides.gov.uk/pestreg/prodsearch.asp is where you need to be for an up to date, free, search facility. This is a great resource available for all!

 

[Refco]

Too right. The CRD website databases https://secure.pesticides.gov.uk/pestreg/prodsearch.asp is where you need to be for an up to date, free, search facility. This is a great resource available for all!

Thanks for that link.

Just ordered a copy of the UK Pesticide Guide 2010 for £3.18 from ebay, so not badly priced really.

It's got to be more up to date than my 1993 copy of Crop Husbandry, which has us conquering weeds with such products as Autumn Kite and Javelin Gold!

 

[rob1]

Thanks for that link.

Just ordered a copy of the UK Pesticide Guide 2010 for £3.18 from ebay, so not badly priced really.

It's got to be more up to date than my 1993 copy of Crop Husbandry, which has us conquering weeds with such products as Autumn Kite and Javelin Gold!

But they worked as well if not better than what is about today

 

[Andy26]

Thanks for that link.

Just ordered a copy of the UK Pesticide Guide 2010 for £3.18 from ebay, so not badly priced really.

It's got to be more up to date than my 1993 copy of Crop Husbandry, which has us conquering weeds with such products as Autumn Kite and Javelin Gold!

The 2010 guide is of little use, stick to the CRD database as @Woodlander has said and @Brisel is correct even the 2014 pesticide guide is out of date before it drops off the printing press.

So many revokations, ammendements etc, that the database it the way to go. Plus on a smartphone its in your pocket all the time.

Peruse the 2010 book by all means to get a feel for it, be aware it will not provide any meaningful information as to which chemicals have the best efficacy, what each chemical controls and tank mixing etc.