CHP

[scotston]

I have a Spanner up at Dundee that heats a broiler shed, dries grain and dries chip. Just thought I'd mention it in case I was easier to get to than Nick.

 

[chpservice]

I’d advise against ORC machines, they are not reliable and definitely not cost effective.
CHP machines can make good sense however picking the right one, getting the set up right 1st time will save you a lot of time , hassle and money.

I have worked with a few including Volter and Holtz, also Binder boilers, Froling and ORC machines.

 

[renewablejohn]

I’d advise against ORC machines, they are not reliable and definitely not cost effective.
CHP machines can make good sense however picking the right one, getting the set up right 1st time will save you a lot of time , hassle and money.

I have worked with a few including Volter and Holtz, also Binder boilers, Froling and ORC machines.

Nothing wrong with ORC using hot thermal oil and a steam evaporator.

 

[chpservice]

Nothing wrong with ORC using hot thermal oil and a steam evaporator.

My own personal experience is that they are exspensive, unrealible, the organic fluid used is expensive to buy ( £10k per 205ltr barrel ) and the machines are for ever needing air bled out of them, expanders are problematic, most OEM parts have huge mark ups and any service packages and back up costs a fortune.
Some might have had success with them but I am aware of a few who have given up with them and switched them off.

 

[chpservice]

I have a Spanner up at Dundee that heats a broiler shed, dries grain and dries chip. Just thought I'd mention it in case I was easier to get to than Nick.

I like the spanner models, easy to work on , not encased in cabinets like some.

 

[renewablejohn]

My own personal experience is that they are exspensive, unrealible, the organic fluid used is expensive to buy ( £10k per 205ltr barrel ) and the machines are for ever needing air bled out of them, expanders are problematic, most OEM parts have huge mark ups and any service packages and back up costs a fortune.
Some might have had success with them but I am aware of a few who have given up with them and switched them off.

Think were talking a different animal here. I am on about conventional steam just that the biomass boiler heats thermal oil then a thermal oil steam evaporator produces the conventional steam. Simple reliable technology.

 

[chpservice]

Think were talking a different animal here. I am on about conventional steam just that the biomass boiler heats thermal oil then a thermal oil steam evaporator produces the conventional steam. Simple reliable technology.

Yeah definitely, yours sounds more like a conventional steam driven turbine ,different thing all together, sounds interesting though

 

[tompick]

Does anyone have any experience with Entrade CHP units?

 

[chpservice]

Are they the one stop shop ones that come in a container, very compact but basically the same principle on a smaller scale.

 

[f0ster]

They have had the same issues as the volter and the Froling. The reaction chamber burns out in about 4 months. They might have improved them now but not sure.

 

[chpservice]

The Volter gasifier is a lot bigger and is made of an outer shell, inner tube, and middle tube with an array of air hoses. The original tubes where made of 3mm stainless steel, using a company called the RM Group in Wales 6mm stainless tubes were manufactured and these proved to be better, after 1800 hours , a gasifier was torn done for inspection and the new 6mm tubes were in perfect condition. Unsure if you could do a similar modification to Entrade CHPs. I find the gasifier is the weak link in most CHP’s.

 

[rogeriko]

The Volter definately has the best gasifier we have many running for 24h a day nonstop for days on end before they restart. We are now seeing over 8500 hours a year, which means over £45000 worth of electricity at retail price.

 

[trebor07]

The Volter definately has the best gasifier we have many running for 24h a day nonstop for days on end before they restart. We are now seeing over 9500 hours a year, which means over £50000 worth of electricity at retail price.

What year are you thinking of ?
There’s only 8750 hours in a year ! lol

 

[trebor07]

On the Spanner system, I know the owner of the company who has installed quite a few of them and provides a full support on each install. The kit itself, works.

It all depends on what you want to achieve with the CHP? Taken the £60k quote from Scottish Power, reduced electricity costs. As you have a feedstock supply in the poultry waste - this could be utilised, reducing running costs of any tech even further. It's all about crunching the numbers and then working what tech is the best to use.

Poultry waste going into an engine ?! Please enlighten me how you would clean this gas before the nitrogen or hydrogen sulphide eats the engine ?

 

[rogeriko]

What year are you thinking of ?
There’s only 8750 hours in a year ! lol

My mistake I meant 8500 hours. Actually there are 8760 hours in a year.

 

[chpservice]

I have heard most of the Volter CHP machines that are getting on for 3-4 years old have barely covered 14000 working hours due to reliability issues, replacement gasifier parts every few months, electronic parts failing, 3 phase motors needing replacing, Ash extraction problems, Chip feeding problems, you can’t even run them at 100% capacity, Not exactly blistering figures and way off what what is being quoted from the fellow above.

I have heard there are vast improvements with the newest units from Volter in Finland and the company themselves are apparently really good to work with and offer a good back up service for their customers, unfortunately those who bought the older machines are having to fork out thousands to bring thier machines up to scratch to get decent reliability.

 

[Boughton woodfuel]

My experience of the Volta unit is that it was put on the market way before enough testing had been done, leading to us customers suffering the numerous teething problems. Over the last 3yrs ours has run at about 65% of the claimed output. The support from Volta is very, very poor, always looking to blame the fuel, the installation, etc but never admit to any problems with the design - it has always turned out to be the design and components used. However, the situation has improved markedly in the last six months now that we have some extremely competent engineers (ESP Energy) looking after the unit, and the design and the component problems have been largely solved (at our considerable expense!) Availability will settle out at around a reliable 75% of the claimed output.

 

[f0ster]

yes you are right but they are not the only ones, froling and entrade also had the same issues with the chamber burning out. not sure if spanner had these issues.

 

[tompick]

What grade of steel do you think should be used in the gasifiers to stop them burning out and deforming so quickly?

 

[rollestonpark]

What grade of steel do you think should be used in the gasifiers to stop them burning out and deforming so quickly?

My view steel won't cure it.
Froling have circular firebricks in them now.

The lower firebrick in my Froling gasifier lasted about 6 months, the upper is still fine.
Possibly could have got another 3 months out of the lower one, but bits started to fall off it.

To be fair to froling, this has made a huge difference. They have only done this for the UK market.
Because in the UK we don't season our wood chip before burning, we just force dry it and use it.

This causes the burn in boilers and gasifiers to be too hot causing problems for the firebricks/metal etc.
In Austria, it seems that this is a know issue (amongst the manufacturers) for UK systems.

I think Froling have different software in the boilers for the UK market for this reason.
Chris