Churches and farming

[Hindsight]

A pragmatic view on their part, I think it unlikely that Muslim migrants would feel obliged to treat a Christian church with the respect it deserves.

Why not?

Apologies in advance, but to me you seem to conflate the issue of Islamic fundamentalism views held by some groups within the broader Islamic community, which has destroyed many non Islamic buildings in the Middle East, with individual human beings who for various reasons decide to uproot from their homeland and local family network to travel across the world to a place they hope will offer some salvation knowing that they will be hounded for doing so.

Your comment implies every individual who is a moslem will take the opportunity to damage the fabric of a Christian artefact. That is not the view I take of my Doctor who is a Moslem, or the local Takeaway staff who are of Bangladeshi extraction. So why should new migrants be any different.

As someone who and whose family before has never felt the need to uproot and leave the fens to go elsewhere I have considerable empathy and sympathy for such folks. All the while I have never felt reason to flee.

Sorry if I have taken your comment the wrong way. I am not a practising Christian, never have been. But the Christian thing I would assume is to offer ones house to strangers in distress - is that not the teachings of the Christian Gospels. I wouldn't know as I fell out with the Church when 9 years old at Sunday School and could not recite from memory the Lords Prayer and thus was detained in the Church Hall by the Sunday School teacher until I could learn it. I concluded at the age of 9 the CofEwas equally barbaric as any other religion.

Best wishes.,

 

[roscoe erf]

they make great houses

 

[glasshouse]

they make great houses

One for sale near here, its only the actual footprint of thr building, no land as that is full of bones
No thanks

 

[roscoe erf]

One for sale near here, its only the actual footprint of thr building, no land as that is full of bones
No thanks

i've always fancied living in the dead centre of town

 

[teslacoils]

My local church is simply unsustainable. Total expenditure on the bare legal minimum of insurance is many times income. Yes it's pretty. There are many who "love the building" but none actually put their hands in their pockets to repair it. I am treasurer by family tradition, but there is scent treasure left.

The rise of the happy clappies is ace. They meet in warm buildings. They are, in stark contrast to the attenders of the cofe, young happy and vibrant. As a member of an obscure religious sect, it's not a case of moving with the times. More that the association between faith and some or other building needs severing. In response to the Methodist situation if a chapel isn't viable they just shut it. Easy as that. My elderly neighbour left all his dosh to the Methodists. The local chapel was shut within months of his death. Sigh. They don't mess about.

Combined insurance for the right group cofe churches here is about £8k which is about equal to what's taken in collection. All could drive the four miles to the church in the centre. Seven grand less insurance. Building maintenance stops active "churching".

 

[Hindsight]

My local church is simply unsustainable. Total expenditure on the bare legal minimum of insurance is many times income. Yes it's pretty. There are many who "love the building" but none actually put their hands in their pockets to repair it. I am treasurer by family tradition, but there is scent treasure left.

The rise of the happy clappies is ace. They meet in warm buildings. They are, in stark contrast to the attenders of the cofe, young happy and vibrant. As a member of an obscure religious sect, it's not a case of moving with the times. More that the association between faith and some or other building needs severing. In response to the Methodist situation if a chapel isn't viable they just shut it. Easy as that. My elderly neighbour left all his dosh to the Methodists. The local chapel was shut within months of his death. Sigh. They don't mess about.

Combined insurance for the right group cofe churches here is about £8k which is about equal to what's taken in collection. All could drive the four miles to the church in the centre. Seven grand less insurance. Building maintenance stops active "churching".

Mirrors agriculture really. Redundant farmsteads. Lovely old farm buildings to connect us with our history and past. But they get sold off and developed. But of course they are not churches!

I have no answer for the churches. Our village church is in the centre of the village. Dates back to Saxon period - and quite fascinating dating the various parts of the structure. Not one of the 12 - 14 C 'statement' churches that are In Lincolnshire, a testament usually to the financial power of the wool trade.

Presumably the happy clappies have a faith in God and wish to meet up with each other to join in some form of collective appreciation of and worship to this preculiar concept called God. I presume you believe similar but do it in a colder building. Have you asked any happy clappies would they be happy, happy clapping in a colder stone ancient building? If so then it is the product sold by the Cof E that is wrong?

 

[JP1]

When on holiday the OH likes to visit churches, not so much a religious thing more to soak up the architecture and local history. Called at Mildenhall on the way home yesterday to tick another one off the list. Stood in the beautifully cool nave, staring up at the carved wooden angels, I found myself meditating thus:
1) Churches are uniquely placed in their community to withstand a more extreme climate, notably heat and wind.
2) Many of our churches were built on the back of the toil of farmers.
3) Churches have a pressing need to find ways to be more relevant to an increasingly secular world.
4) The high street shop is knackered. Landlords will use corona as the final straw to turn shops in to houses (which many were originally anyway).
5) Millions of commuters are now ex commuters. Working from home will be the new normal for many, bringing a reversal in the long term trend of villages being dead in the daytime.

Is the time right for churches to host regular food markets ? Does anyone on here live where this happens ? Could anyone who has an involvement in The Church and thinks this has mileage, have a word upstairs, as it were.

I won't reply to your question in the last paragraph but I agree churches of England have a very special place (not discounting Scotland or Wales in that statement)

Not sure of your route but you weren't that far from Ely Cathedral (the Ship of the Fen) and that's a must if you haven't done it. Also South and East of Mildenhall there are some truly fine churches (ironically) built / enhanced on the back of wool: Lavenham, Woolpit, Fornham are three such superb examples

 

[teslacoils]

Presumably the happy clappies have a faith in God and wish to meet up with each other to join in some form of collective appreciation of and worship to this preculiar concept called God. I presume you believe similar but do it in a colder building. Have you asked any happy clappies would they be happy, happy clapping in a colder stone ancient building? If so then it is the product sold by the Cof E that is wrong?

Ha. Our building is warm enough. Quite simply, cofe has a "can't do" attitude. My village church is "Norman" but actually had been extensively altered, expanded, reduced, redecorated over the years at the expense of the local lord. Then, blam, grade 1 listing and transfer to the church estate / requirements for faculties lock it in a time warp. There is no way you could dare alter anything.

I'll illuminate the thinking:

About twelve years ago, just before my son's christening, some "folk" stole the lead from the roof. Ah, says the church, PCC needs to sort that out as it's "your roof". Thieves left s little of the lead so we suggested we could melt it into medallions and sell to raise funds. "no", said the bosses . That's our lead. You can't do nothing with it. Fine, we'll replace it with a different material so they won't nick it. Nope, we won't give a faculty for anything but lead. Result - "temporary" tin roof has been there 12 years. Recent quinquennial report would say we need to put aside between 12 and 20k a year for repairs. Last year total "profit" was break even. And that was lucky. I'd expect a two grand loss per year.

You can't make it up. It's managed decline. Meanwhile the clappies run creches, food banks, homeless shelters, and now in Lincoln they do mental health support.

 

[ollie989898]

A pragmatic view on their part, I think it unlikely that Muslim migrants would feel obliged to treat a Christian church with the respect it deserves.

That isn't true. For a long long time in many Islamic cultures, Christians and their places of worship were protected by law.

 

[glasshouse]

Ha. Our building is warm enough. Quite simply, cofe has a "can't do" attitude. My village church is "Norman" but actually had been extensively altered, expanded, reduced, redecorated over the years at the expense of the local lord. Then, blam, grade 1 listing and transfer to the church estate / requirements for faculties lock it in a time warp. There is no way you could dare alter anything.

I'll illuminate the thinking:

About twelve years ago, just before my son's christening, some "folk" stole the lead from the roof. Ah, says the church, PCC needs to sort that out as it's "your roof". Thieves left s little of the lead so we suggested we could melt it into medallions and sell to raise funds. "no", said the bosses . That's our lead. You can't do nothing with it. Fine, we'll replace it with a different material so they won't nick it. Nope, we won't give a faculty for anything but lead. Result - "temporary" tin roof has been there 12 years. Recent quinquennial report would say we need to put aside between 12 and 20k a year for repairs. Last year total "profit" was break even. And that was lucky. I'd expect a two grand loss per year.

You can't make it up. It's managed decline. Meanwhile the clappies run creches, food banks, homeless shelters, and now in Lincoln they do mental health support.

Tin is fine, just leave it.
In scotland nearly the entire population walked out and boycotted the established church after they preached it was gods will for them to lose their homes and let the clearances to happen.
Thats when the free church was born

 

[ollie989898]

Our church is used as a village hall, as well as the usual church services.
About 10 years ago a kitchen and toilet was added to the back. We don't have a hall or a pub in the village, (the only pub is half a mile down a main road with no footpath). The pews are removeable so that the floor can be cleared and chairs replaced some of the pews.
Every first Friday of the month, before covid, was "Friday with friends", you take your own drink and nibbles and socialise with whoever is there. Some months there are themes, others are "bring and share" food nights, pie nights etc.
Sometimes there are local tribute bands on, it's used by local groups for meeting and the Parish Council sometimes meet there (there are 4 villages in the Parish).
The PCC put a lot of time and effort into making the church work for the community, which is what it was built for, not for some distant Bishop to draw an annual levy from.
It's been there for nearly a thousand years and seen many changes, and will have to keep evolving to survive.
It all comes down to members of the community to make it what it needs to be.
If anyone thinks that this is what their church need PM for details and come and have a look.

Prior to being married, we attended the Church in Shepton Mallet (a fairly impressive building) several times. In one corner, they have set up the Church so that mums, babies and toddlers can meet, near daily for coffee and to play with toys and the like, all for free. Churches must adapt to become part of the community, I must agree. Even if they have healthy congregations, this meeting once a week (month in some diocese) is hardly sustainable long term.

 

[delilah]

i've always fancied living in the dead centre of town

neighbours would be quiet.

I won't reply to your question in the last paragraph but I agree churches of England have a very special place (not discounting Scotland or Wales in that statement)

Not sure of your route but you weren't that far from Ely Cathedral (the Ship of the Fen) and that's a must if you haven't done it. Also South and East of Mildenhall there are some truly fine churches (ironically) built / enhanced on the back of wool: Lavenham, Woolpit, Fornham are three such superb examples

yep we did Ely a few years ago, will suggest those others for future trips. As you say there's so many churches built on the back of wool, which I think adds to the argument that they should be rekindling their connection with agriculture in a way that meets the needs of today.

 

[Hindsight]

Ha. Our building is warm enough. Quite simply, cofe has a "can't do" attitude. My village church is "Norman" but actually had been extensively altered, expanded, reduced, redecorated over the years at the expense of the local lord. Then, blam, grade 1 listing and transfer to the church estate / requirements for faculties lock it in a time warp. There is no way you could dare alter anything.

I'll illuminate the thinking:

About twelve years ago, just before my son's christening, some "folk" stole the lead from the roof. Ah, says the church, PCC needs to sort that out as it's "your roof". Thieves left s little of the lead so we suggested we could melt it into medallions and sell to raise funds. "no", said the bosses . That's our lead. You can't do nothing with it. Fine, we'll replace it with a different material so they won't nick it. Nope, we won't give a faculty for anything but lead. Result - "temporary" tin roof has been there 12 years. Recent quinquennial report would say we need to put aside between 12 and 20k a year for repairs. Last year total "profit" was break even. And that was lucky. I'd expect a two grand loss per year.

You can't make it up. It's managed decline. Meanwhile the clappies run creches, food banks, homeless shelters, and now in Lincoln they do mental health support.
[/QUOTE

Thank you for that reply post. A most pertinent reply. It should be copied to the Church Synond.

It reflects what I see. My wife's best friend is a church goer and has taken on the job of church warden. So I hear all of your comments over our kitchen table. And those comments are same here. And still I do not go nor contribute.

And the clappies are not encumbered by the legacy of these ancient protected buildings.

As an aside, years ago I worked for a brief while for a national land agent in a junior role in the farm management department. We oversaw the farming activities of many a landed estate. I vividly recall one day being invited in for a cup of tea with the Lord as he wanted to have a chat about the in hand farm. A man educated at Eton, the family friends with Royalty. But such a nice pleasant man. And a man whose whole life seemed to revolve around the state of the roof and the cost of upkeep of the stately mansion.

 

[glasshouse]

The thing that gets me is they built all those magnificent buildings off the back of folk who lived in hovels

 

[Hindsight]

neighbours would be quiet.



yep we did Ely a few years ago, will suggest those others for future trips. As you say there's so many churches built on the back of wool, which I think adds to the argument that they should be rekindling their connection with agriculture in a way that meets the needs of today.

If you haven't already got it I suggest Simon Jenkins '1000 best churches'

England's Thousand Best Churches: Amazon.co.uk: Jenkins, Simon, Barker, Paul: 8601300098227: Books

Buy England's Thousand Best Churches Reissue by Jenkins, Simon, Barker, Paul (ISBN: 8601300098227) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[Hindsight]

Ha. Our building is warm enough. Quite simply, cofe has a "can't do" attitude. My village church is "Norman" but actually had been extensively altered, expanded, reduced, redecorated over the years at the expense of the local lord. Then, blam, grade 1 listing and transfer to the church estate / requirements for faculties lock it in a time warp. There is no way you could dare alter anything.

I'll illuminate the thinking:

About twelve years ago, just before my son's christening, some "folk" stole the lead from the roof. Ah, says the church, PCC needs to sort that out as it's "your roof". Thieves left s little of the lead so we suggested we could melt it into medallions and sell to raise funds. "no", said the bosses . That's our lead. You can't do nothing with it. Fine, we'll replace it with a different material so they won't nick it. Nope, we won't give a faculty for anything but lead. Result - "temporary" tin roof has been there 12 years. Recent quinquennial report would say we need to put aside between 12 and 20k a year for repairs. Last year total "profit" was break even. And that was lucky. I'd expect a two grand loss per year.

You can't make it up. It's managed decline. Meanwhile the clappies run creches, food banks, homeless shelters, and now in Lincoln they do mental health support.

Thank you for that reply post. A most pertinent reply. It should be copied to the Church Synond.

It reflects what I see. My wife's best friend is a church goer and has taken on the job of church warden. So I hear all of your comments over our kitchen table. And those comments are same here. And still I do not go nor contribute.

And the clappies are not encumbered by the legacy of these ancient protected buildings.

As an aside, years ago I worked for a brief while for a national land agent in a junior role in the farm management department. We oversaw the farming activities of many a landed estate. I vividly recall one day being invited in for a cup of tea with the Lord as he wanted to have a chat about the in hand farm. A man educated at Eton, the family friends with Royalty. But such a nice pleasant man. And a man whose whole life seemed to revolve around the state of the roof and the cost of upkeep of the stately mansion.

 

[Hindsight]

The thing that gets me is they built all those magnificent buildings off the back of folk who lived in hovels

Ah the socialist comes out. John Knox would be proud. Idolatry and belief in the life hereafter. But socialist still build structures as tokens and memorials. Quakerism is possibly the truest form of humanism religion.

 

[DrWazzock]

We are just about out of road morally, logistically and financially with our local church, sad to say. The Diocesan office won’t allow economic repairs. The cost of the sort of repairs they specify are prohibitively expensive.
The building was by and large paid for by the squirearchy including later refurbishments and additions in the early twentieth century. Garden fetes and fundraisers have gradually lost ground financially with mounting costs such that now we need about £250k to keep the building water tight and structurally sound. Any event is lucky to gross £1000 with a lot of that donated by the same few people. It disappears as running expenses and in contributions to HQ to pay the vicar. Our only chance of preserving the building is application for grants / lottery funding etc. Then for what? Tiny congregation, unsustainable running costs. If money and effort can be raised then maybe there are more deserving causes IMO.
Alternative uses, maybe. But there is no car park, no toilets. no running water and no vehicular access. Any such improvements, even if permitted cost a fortune.
What’s more the entire PCC fought tooth and nail against our planning application for homes for local people which despite all the opposition have ended up being built and have indeed provided homes for hard working locals who have worked their arses off to get them built. I’d sooner help folk like that if I’m honest, rather than see money hoovered out of the parish to pay C of E pension funds and hoards of bureaucrats.
I’m done with cold stone and the remnants of Henry VIII‘s thought police. And let them that wants slate pay for slate.

 

[teslacoils]

The situation sounds just like here @DrWazzock . Although very few if the local farmers actually go to church, they are still the ones who "get stuff done" be it sending staff round to tidy the graves up, keep the ivy down etc. It's very much a "can't let it fall down on our watch" approach. Our local vicar is very good. But I imagine he needs as much help from the old God as the rest when it comes of diocesan bureaucracy.

 

[Hindsight]

We are just about out of road morally, logistically and financially with our local church, sad to say. The Diocesan office won’t allow economic repairs. The cost of the sort of repairs they specify are prohibitively expensive.
The building was by and large paid for by the squirearchy including later refurbishments and additions in the early twentieth century. Garden fetes and fundraisers have gradually lost ground financially with mounting costs such that now we need about £250k to keep the building water tight and structurally sound. Any event is lucky to gross £1000 with a lot of that donated by the same few people. It disappears as running expenses and in contributions to HQ to pay the vicar. Our only chance of preserving the building is application for grants / lottery funding etc. Then for what? Tiny congregation, unsustainable running costs. If money and effort can be raised then maybe there are more deserving causes IMO.
Alternative uses, maybe. But there is no car park, no toilets. no running water and no vehicular access. Any such improvements, even if permitted cost a fortune.
What’s more the entire PCC fought tooth and nail against our planning application for homes for local people which despite all the opposition have ended up being built and have indeed provided homes for hard working locals who have worked their arses off to get them built. I’d sooner help folk like that if I’m honest, rather than see money hoovered out of the parish to pay C of E pension funds and hoards of bureaucrats.
I’m done with cold stone and the remnants of Henry VIII‘s thought police. And let them that wants slate pay for slate.

I’m done with cold stone and the remnants of Henry VIII‘s thought police. And let them that wants slate pay for slate

Lovely reply. This sentence gave me a titter!

Of course occassionally, and as I age the occasions gather in number I do wonder if there is anything in the mystery of religion and whether I ought to just 'hedge my bets' with regard to knocking at those pearly gates to find my balance sheet of 'rights and wrongs' is missing a few 'stamps' Does my charity payments for a few years to Barnardos offset my miserliness with the Church building fund.

Of course as you say in olden times there was no choice the local landowner collected tithes so everyone maintained the idolatry of the building as a reminder to all that God was in fact a Property Developer.