Classic Class - A Rather Large Nail In The Coffin?

Howard150

Member
Location
Yorkshire
Last week whilst talking to a Director of the SOP, he made me aware of moves afoot to split the Classic Class into two disciplines, Whole Work and Semi Digger. This was confirmed on Saturday last by another Director whilst I judged a ploughing match in Lincolnshire.

On Sunday last two Directors usually found lurking in the higher echelons of the unelected at the SOP (no names but suffice to say that one starts similar to Tom and ends in linson, t'other starts with Aitch and ends up ill) were trying to gauge feeling / curry favour for the very same manouvre. Both said and as yet unnamed directors just happen to plough in the Classic class using TCN's. Bearing in mind TCN's outnumber RWM's by roughly five or six to one, it is difficult to comprehend the need for a division of the class unless it is a calculated move to ban RWM's from the class. There seems little point in having sixteen or seventeen TCN's ploughing in one class whilst two or three RWM's plough together in another class. I see it as a move by a bad loser in a privileged position trying to remove opposition by imposing a ban on RWM's. The days where this division was nescessary are 30 odd years long gone. What's needed is for men to man up and plough.

What this does highlight is the significant distance between the few successful ploughmen who this affects and the largely unelected self propagating body in the echelons who make the rules. It is a joke, made in the very worst of taste.

Not hard to envisage the first problem. Who is the to be the classic representative for Europe or the 6 Nations, TCN or RWM ploughman?

Next problem if this goes ahead is how long RND's will last in the Vintage class if the proposed violation of the Classic class is allowed to take place.

The English Classic class is something to be proud of. It allows ploughs of a similar nature and era to compete on fairly level ground, the only addition nescessary being to legalise Duncan boards. We do not need to spoil it as the Europeans have done by legitimising world style kit. We do not need to follow their lead as the Scots have done. Let well alone. We started all this in the 1830's. We should be making the rules - not tagging along behind.

Forgive me for saying, but 300 members of the SOP who were coerced into supplying proxy votes at the last AGM, did nothing other than give a largely unelected body free rein to do as they please. Change in the SOP? I think not
 
Last edited:

Howard150

Member
Location
Yorkshire
Who won the classic class in lincolnshire ? And with which bodies

Bob Butlin. TCN

AT that time possibly the only RWM's were those of Stuart Forsyth but he packed up due to failure of his hydraulics. He would not have been successful as both he and myself had been pushed out into unploughable plots with half the length of the plot being similar to a quarry. They were unable to mark the scratch with a world style plough.
 

Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
Its just a rerun of the vintage trailed problem of many years ago. Then it was hard to get an entry if you used an RND plough.
 

arcobob

Member
Location
Norfolk
The Classic class is governed by artificial rules concerning eligible bodies . Why not allow SCNs, YCNs or any other if it falls within the timescale, unless you are going to exclude or reclassify specifically designed match bodies not in commercial use. This whole thing is is a mess of the SOP's making.
 

Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
Surely any moves made need to be progressive and not regressive?
Indeed they should, but while we have the mind set prevailing now, which is to get as many entrants, and hang the ploughing, you will continue to get the plethora of classes that now exist, and more will be added, if only to accommodate the less capable ploughmen, and their poorer equipment.Classes should be partitioned according to the style of work, but a ploughman should be allowed to enter whatever type of plough he likes.It will self police, no one will get very far with an RND plough in a digger class, likewise a TCN in whole work. and so will only enter the class which suits their equipment.The total number of entrants will shrink, but the standard of work should improve.
 

Tonym

Member
Location
Shropshire
Surely IF we need a split classic class it would make more sense to allow scn, ucn, standard Kv hydrien etc as Bob says in and tractors over say 20 years old could be used. Tractors are now 40 minimum of years old and there are many newer classics that cannot be used for ploughing at the moment due to the stupid rule saying in production before Q cab regulations.
In my opinion a cab of any description is a hindrance not an asset (unless it's raining) and does not give any advantage at all to the ploughman.
 
i can never really understand the 1959 rule for vintage

the bulk of tractors altered in 64/65 which to me would be a better date,

in fordson terms nothing between a major - power major , super major except maybe diff lock

browns changed from red to white

not too sure about about nash

in massey terms there would be no advantage using a mk2 65 or a 165 over a mk1 65 weather they had mult-power or not------anyway i have a mk2 65 and would like to use it in vintage whilst i did a bit of refurb on my mk1:whistle:
 

Howard150

Member
Location
Yorkshire
i can never really understand the 1959 rule for vintage

the bulk of tractors altered in 64/65 which to me would be a better date,

in fordson terms nothing between a major - power major , super major except maybe diff lock

browns changed from red to white

not too sure about about nash

in massey terms there would be no advantage using a mk2 65 or a 165 over a mk1 65 weather they had mult-power or not------anyway i have a mk2 65 and would like to use it in vintage whilst i did a bit of refurb on my mk1:whistle:

Aparrently the NVTEC have reclassified vintage as 1964.
With regard to the SOP then the cut off date was probably more to do with excluding diff locks from the vintage class (35 vs 35x and Dexta vs Super Dexta) whilst one of the rule makers ploughing with a B275 was still able to plough with the added benefit of a diff lock.
TonyM makes a very good point with regard to classic tractors. When is a classic tractor not a classic tractor. How does this sit with all the derivatives of the 5000 which were in production long after 1976?
 

Howard150

Member
Location
Yorkshire
Indeed they should, but while we have the mind set prevailing now, which is to get as many entrants, and hang the ploughing, you will continue to get the plethora of classes that now exist, and more will be added, if only to accommodate the less capable ploughmen, and their poorer equipment.Classes should be partitioned according to the style of work, but a ploughman should be allowed to enter whatever type of plough he likes.It will self police, no one will get very far with an RND plough in a digger class, likewise a TCN in whole work. and so will only enter the class which suits their equipment.The total number of entrants will shrink, but the standard of work should improve.

Starting to make things complicated now Harry.

How do you judge TCN work in cutting ground when whole work is produced?
How do you judge RWM work in dry friable ground where broken work is produced?

The ground has changed significantly since you and Adam were lads Harry. We don't need more classes.

We hardly need to go round fixing things not broken. The only way to increase standards is by allowing the best ploughmen to do what they do best - unhampered by petty rule makers, biased judges and bitter rivals. It's up to the rest of the movement to up their game accordingly.

Like it or not - the chance is there for those prepared to take it
 

arcobob

Member
Location
Norfolk
Aparrently the NVTEC have reclassified vintage as 1964.
With regard to the SOP then the cut off date was probably more to do with excluding diff locks from the vintage class (35 vs 35x and Dexta vs Super Dexta) whilst one of the rule makers ploughing with a B275 was still able to plough with the added benefit of a diff lock.
TonyM makes a very good point with regard to classic tractors. When is a classic tractor not a classic tractor. How does this sit with all the derivatives of the 5000 which were in production long after 1976?
There are MF 35s with diff locks and even FE35s, albeit modified. IH had a way of overlapping models so that 275,276, 414 and 434 overlapped and were all the same tractor as far as made no difference in this context.
 

Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
Starting to make things complicated now Harry.

How do you judge TCN work in cutting ground when whole work is produced?
How do you judge RWM work in dry friable ground where broken work is produced?

The ground has changed significantly since you and Adam were lads Harry. We don't need more classes.

We hardly need to go round fixing things not broken. The only way to increase standards is by allowing the best ploughmen to do what they do best - unhampered by petty rule makers, biased judges and bitter rivals. It's up to the rest of the movement to up their game accordingly.

Like it or not - the chance is there for those prepared to take it
Horses for courses comes to mind,and getting rid of the one make classes will reduce the number.Its ironic that your opening statement is exactly the reason people want to split the class!
 

Howard150

Member
Location
Yorkshire
There are MF 35s with diff locks and even FE35s, albeit modified. IH had a way of overlapping models so that 275,276, 414 and 434 overlapped and were all the same tractor as far as made no difference in this context.

And 444 - all taken from Apperley bridge to India and rebadged Mahindra!

By and large people stick to the rules as written though there are a number of 35's running about with 135 back ends on!
 

Howard150

Member
Location
Yorkshire
Horses for courses comes to mind,and getting rid of the one make classes will reduce the number.Its ironic that your opening statement is exactly the reason people want to split the class!

Lost on this one Harry. Taking RWM's out of the Classic will create an even more refined One Make One Body class
 

Pennine Ploughing

Member
Mixed Farmer
there is nothing wrong with the classic class as it is, and I dont think it needs splitting, at a match at the weekend and Tcn was first and rwm was second,
it is a bit of what soil types suits on the day, along with how the ploughman can handle the conditions on the day,
as for moving the date forward for the vintage class, then I do not think that this is the way forward, as the vintage class at most if not all, has the biggest entries, so why make it any bigger and at the same time reduce numbers in the classic class, also there is still plenty of vintage tractors and ploughs about, and until there is a shortage of them, then leave the vintage alone along with the classic,
however with both of the above getting older year on year,
would it be an idea to introduce a say modern classic class, made up of tractors pre say 1996 and same for the Plough, and let this class include the likes of scn ucn fiskers and so on, as there is and as things are be a big gap and getting bigger year on year from the present day classic class to world style,
 

Howard150

Member
Location
Yorkshire
there is nothing wrong with the classic class as it is, and I dont think it needs splitting, at a match at the weekend and Tcn was first and rwm was second,
it is a bit of what soil types suits on the day, along with how the ploughman can handle the conditions on the day,
as for moving the date forward for the vintage class, then I do not think that this is the way forward, as the vintage class at most if not all, has the biggest entries, so why make it any bigger and at the same time reduce numbers in the classic class, also there is still plenty of vintage tractors and ploughs about, and until there is a shortage of them, then leave the vintage alone along with the classic,
however with both of the above getting older year on year,
would it be an idea to introduce a say modern classic class, made up of tractors pre say 1996 and same for the Plough, and let this class include the likes of scn ucn fiskers and so on, as there is and as things are be a big gap and getting bigger year on year from the present day classic class to world style,

Very good idea for a more modern classic class. Classic World style would probably cause less confusion in terms of a name. Classic European would allow Classics albeit modern to compete on a more level playing field in Europe

Same old same old with the classic class John - if it's not broken don't fix it
 

Tonym

Member
Location
Shropshire
Very good idea for a more modern classic class. Classic World style would probably cause less confusion in terms of a name. Classic European would allow Classics albeit modern to compete on a more level playing field in Europe

Same old same old with the classic class John - if it's not broken don't fix it
Is that not what I suggested. There are far too many more modern classics that have no class to plough in at the moment. To include more modern tractors would not mean two classic classes as I can not see any advantage to be gained by having a later model tractor.
As for the ploughs if they were included then you would probably need to split the class as some of older ploughs would become outclassed. Also if nothing is done to include these later ploughs they will no doubt succumb to the gas axe and in 10 years time there will be none to include.
Maybe we should follow Scotland and have the classes governed by the width that you plough as many classic Ploughmen now plough 10" furrows not at the specified depth I might add and somehow manage to get away without any penalty for depth infringements.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 104 40.6%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 93 36.3%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 39 15.2%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 5 2.0%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.2%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 12 4.7%

May Event: The most profitable farm diversification strategy 2024 - Mobile Data Centres

  • 1,526
  • 28
With just a internet connection and a plug socket you too can join over 70 farms currently earning up to £1.27 ppkw ~ 201% ROI

Register Here: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-mo...2024-mobile-data-centres-tickets-871045770347

Tuesday, May 21 · 10am - 2pm GMT+1

Location: Village Hotel Bury, Rochdale Road, Bury, BL9 7BQ

The Farming Forum has teamed up with the award winning hardware manufacturer Easy Compute to bring you an educational talk about how AI and blockchain technology is helping farmers to diversify their land.

Over the past 7 years, Easy Compute have been working with farmers, agricultural businesses, and renewable energy farms all across the UK to help turn leftover space into mini data centres. With...
Top