Colin Pitchfork

tje

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
North Hampshire
Yes , bit of a sobering read .


I remember the Pitchfork trial. He had avoided a .DNA sweep of the area by paying / persuading another chap to present as him. Then boasted what he’d done, in the local pub, and was overheard by an off duty police officer.

The judge - again from memory, awarded this devious bugger a whole life sentence. But afaik, that doesn’t have the force of law behind it. It may do in the future.

Hadn’t the chap who stabbed the two rehabilitators in London, killing both, been recommended for early release?
 
If we look at America, which has seriously lengthy prison sentences and even the death penalty, does anyone here actually believe it deters criminals?

These people, if incarcerated, will be a drain on society for the rest of their lives. I'm ok with that but they should be encouraged to work to offset the cost of keeping them. This is why I detest human rights lawyers.
 

Overby

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
South West
If he is to be released he needs to be no threat. There are many reports that he will always be a threat.

A simple solution may be that people like him are chemically castrated pre release?

Or maybe even not not chemically, just castrated.

By being repeatedly booted in the testes until they burst. Then he will have 'paid the price' and he can crack on.
 

Pasty

Member
Location
Devon
If he is to be released he needs to be no threat. There are many reports that he will always be a threat.

A simple solution may be that people like him are chemically castrated pre release?

Or maybe even not not chemically, just castrated.

By being repeatedly booted in the testes until they burst. Then he will have 'paid the price' and he can crack on.
My long handled loppers are a bit rusty so he may be at risk of infection.
 
Location
southwest
Remind me of how a jury influences sentence, will you please? The jury is the tribunal of fact, not law, and it has no say in sentencing.

From your comments it seems that you are happy for the law not to reflect public opinion, provided it does yours...

My mistake, a Jury who sat through the full trial found him guilty. The Judge who also sat through the whole trial and heard all the evidence decided the sentence within guidelines set by our elected representatives.

And of course I believe the Law should not reflect public opinion. If it did it would change with the wind- 50 years ago, Public opinion was overwhelmingly in favour of the UK being part of a European trade group, five years ago Public opinion was undecided. Last week the England football team were being called heroes, by Sunday night some of the public were of the opinion that some England players were unevolved primates.

No, I do not want laws based on the public's opinions or moods.

Pitchfork may be a reformed character. He may not. But I would rather one guilty man goes free than this Country resort to "law" by lynch mob
 

Pasty

Member
Location
Devon
My mistake, a Jury who sat through the full trial found him guilty. The Judge who also sat through the whole trial and heard all the evidence decided the sentence within guidelines set by our elected representatives.

And of course I believe the Law should not reflect public opinion. If it did it would change with the wind- 50 years ago, Public opinion was overwhelmingly in favour of the UK being part of a European trade group, five years ago Public opinion was undecided. Last week the England football team were being called heroes, by Sunday night some of the public were of the opinion that some England players were unevolved primates.

No, I do not want laws based on the public's opinions or moods.

Pitchfork may be a reformed character. He may not. But I would rather one guilty man goes free than this Country resort to "law" by lynch mob
I agree but would ask what scrutiny those who make these decisions are subject to and if they get it wrong and a child is raped an murdered upon freedom, what are the consequences for them? Nothing I suspect which is why I would be in favour of life being life. If technology such as DNA and who knows what else in the future can prove innocence then that person can be freed and compensated. Pretty grim all around but that's where we are.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Friend in the Home Office once told be that parole is very important with certain lifers, as without it they can be very difficult to control.
That can be the case but, in a weird analogy to schools (and most other things), a lot depends upon who is running the prison in question. Some Guv's are outstanding, their places run like clockwork, nobody kicks off and all is well. Same place, a year after they've moved on and been replaced by an incompetent, suicides are up, drugs are up etc. etc.

If we look at America, which has seriously lengthy prison sentences and even the death penalty, does anyone here actually believe it deters criminals?

These people, if incarcerated, will be a drain on society for the rest of their lives. I'm ok with that but they should be encouraged to work to offset the cost of keeping them. This is why I detest human rights lawyers.
The death sentence will and does deter a lot of people; some won't be because they are nutters / stoned, or because they 'lose it'. I'm with you on hard labour, but we most definitely do need human rights lawyers.

Too many of them are insufferably self-righteous liberal-lefties with a political axe to grind. But a fair number a genuinely decent people making sure that others in awful situations have a fair crack. This doesn't mean that I think all human rights law is sound, I don't, and want a lot changed.

My mistake, a Jury who sat through the full trial found him guilty. The Judge who also sat through the whole trial and heard all the evidence decided the sentence within guidelines set by our elected representatives.

And of course I believe the Law should not reflect public opinion. If it did it would change with the wind- 50 years ago, Public opinion was overwhelmingly in favour of the UK being part of a European trade group, five years ago Public opinion was undecided. Last week the England football team were being called heroes, by Sunday night some of the public were of the opinion that some England players were unevolved primates.

No, I do not want laws based on the public's opinions or moods.

Pitchfork may be a reformed character. He may not. But I would rather one guilty man goes free than this Country resort to "law" by lynch mob
In re the emboldened text, that's you and every dictator of every shade there ever was, fine company... But public opinion is not usually a spur of the moment thing, it evolves with the application of the 'common sense' and only crystalises after time and so as it evolves so does the law to reflect it - it's a conservative thing.

In re the underlined text, no. We have elected representatives and a legislature that mitigates any such thing. We only have general elections every now and then and referenda very rarely, so there is no way a fad will become law.

In re the italicised text, how very noble of you, being safe in the statistical near-certainty that it won't be your daughter killed by him.

We agree in the eternal need for rule of law; yet that last bit seems out of place, even a response to something I haven't written, for there could be no 'lynch mob', and no excuse for one, if he were either behind bars or dead.
 

Overby

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
South West
Reports from who--Prison authorities? Medical professionals who have examined him?
Many people involved in the case from the start up until now have voiced tbeur concerns saying they don't agree he should be released.
If you think he's served his sentence and been rehabbed that's fine. I just don't agree. He's a monster. The law is the law, we dont all have to agree with it.
 

Pasty

Member
Location
Devon
Many people involved in the case from the start up until now have voiced tbeur concerns saying they don't agree he should be released.
If you think he's served his sentence and been rehabbed that's fine. I just don't agree. He's a monster. The law is the law, we dont all have to agree with it.
Agree. Unless he can be proved innocent of the original crimes then that's that. Locked up until he dies.
 

Overby

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
South West
"Too many of them are insufferably self-righteous liberal-lefties with a political axe to grind. But a fair number a genuinely decent people making sure that others in awful situations have a fair crack. This doesn't mean that I think all human rights law is sound, I don't, and want a lot changed".

Very well said.
 

MRT

Member
Livestock Farmer
I’m all for the death sentence. What is the point of keeping a well proven murderer locked up for life. The money spent on keeping them alive for no reason would be better spent looking after the elderly. My pension backup plan would be to murder someone deserving so I get looked after properly by the state.
The state cannot be trusted with managing boring day to day things!
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
That can be the case but, in a weird analogy to schools (and most other things), a lot depends upon who is running the prison in question. Some Guv's are outstanding, their places run like clockwork, nobody kicks off and all is well. Same place, a year after they've moved on and been replaced by an incompetent, suicides are up, drugs are up etc. etc.

IMO the problem started 40 odd years ago when Prison Governors started to be recruited far more from social science backgrounds, rather than the forces as they had generally been. This could also be seen with prison officers who generally came as ex forces as well.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
IMO the problem started 40 odd years ago when Prison Governors started to be recruited far more from social science backgrounds, rather than the forces as they had generally been. This could also be seen with prison officers who generally came as ex forces as well.
Yes I agree, however I do recall one who was an exception to that, I met him a couple of times and heard a fair bit about him from others. He was without any doubt a left-liberal and he probably had a 'humanities' background, although can't say for sure, certainly not ex-forces...

But - and was is one of only a handful of 'liberal' examples I have come across - he believed his job / duty was to make certain that his charges were rehabilitated, come what may; that being in their and society's long-term interests rather than their having a relatively cushy time in prison.

So he was a genuine disciplinarian, but also very 'liberal' in his rewards too; in fact he was successful, far more than most of his contemporaries and had the respect of staff and inmates. I think - not sure of this, but it is as I recall - the poor fellow died of a cancer relatively young... :( Can't recall if he was at HMP The Mount or Woodhill, but I know both had a fairly poor reputation in the 2010s so I'm guessing it was one of them.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
So, what’s a prison for? Deterrent or rehabilitation? Seems it isn’t 100% effective at either, but is that because it’s trying to be both?

And is it fair to expect 100% anyway?
There are, traditionally, four things it is for:

1) To protect the public;

2) To deter potential offenders;

3) To punish convicted offenders;

4) To reform where possible.

The order's mine, just as they came to mind. Expecting 100% from any human endeavour is optimistic...
 
So, what’s a prison for? Deterrent or rehabilitation? Seems it isn’t 100% effective at either, but is that because it’s trying to be both?

And is it fair to expect 100% anyway?

Neither. Prison should be for keeping people who can't follow the rules expected in society, out of society.

It does not deter. It cannot rehabilitate everyone successfully. Therefore, bring in life imprisonment and give them work to do to finance it all.
 

Mek

Member
Neither. Prison should be for keeping people who can't follow the rules expected in society, out of society.

It does not deter. It cannot rehabilitate everyone successfully. Therefore, bring in life imprisonment and give them work to do to finance it all.
If you give a lifer work to do and he tells you to eff off,what do you do then ?
 

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