Construction industry losing red diesel

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
Only a matter of time before it happens on farms with us claiming a rebate.would end red then.
nick...
This wouldn’t be the end of the world. Red diesel isn’t duty free now anyway. It’s just a lower duty rate.

Does anybody use Ultra 35 diesel?
This is Diesel without any of the renewable content that Red and Derv has in it.
As I understand it, it is used for engines that might not get regular enough use, where any renewable part of the fuel might cause damage to the engine by blocking the fuel system.
I’ve had problems on my working classics where this has happened.
Ultra 35 is cheaper than Red.
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
Whats the green alternative for a 28 yr old 110hp tractor with a budget for replacement of 20k? asking for a friend
That's easy. A new one. It not only keeps the wheels of industry turning, but the old one will be exported to pollute some other country [yes, and the world's atmosphere] while the new one will emit about 60 times less NOx and particulates than the old one. It's a win-win for everyone and ticks all the right boxes for everyone apart from the one paying the bills.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
There seems to be a fair bit of confusion about it all.
DERV stands for Diesel Engined Road vehicles.
Boat owners were told that they would not be allowed to continue to use Red. This was due to the UK flouting EU fuel marker dye rules. However, Rishi Sunak indicated in the 2021 Budget that Boats can continue to use Red.

I really can’t see that flushing tractor tanks from Red to White for snow clearing is going to happen. The Red dye stains any fuel tank and will release back into white diesel. This can be detected easily when dipping a tank. I’ve known farmers who run a lorry be caught out by a delivery driver not flushing his delivery pipe for long enough.
When it comes to clearing snow, it’ll be a case of JFDI.
When they turned up here and dipped the tanks of a local tractor road run raising money for charity then the attitude tends to be let them clear their own roads
You get to that point with regulators. You just stop doing things. Turnover shrinks, the local economy shrinks, tax revenue shrinks. You make enough to get by, but you don’t invest and you don’t stick your neck out. That’s how the downward spiral of the over regulated over taxed economy sets in. Biggest turnover in our local market town is probably drugs trade funded by the DSS.
 

Tubbylew

Member
Location
Herefordshire
That's easy. A new one. It not only keeps the wheels of industry turning, but the old one will be exported to pollute some other country [yes, and the world's atmosphere] while the new one will emit about 60 times less NOx and particulates than the old one. It's a win-win for everyone and ticks all the right boxes for everyone apart from the one paying the bills.
I literally can't wait to buy a new tractor for £20k!
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
Forcing the construction industry to use DERV will result in them passing on costs to customers.

Thats the whole point of these sort of taxes. Any time you tax a service industry that cannot face foreign competition the consumer ends up paying the tax, especially when its a critical industry that one can't do without. This isn't a tax on construction, its a stealth tax on the public.
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
But our telescopic never leaves the farm but often unloads blocks, pipes and steel work if were building sheds or renovating the older buildings.
I think farm diggers will be another grey area...

Using the telescopic for maintenance of your own Ag buildings and Ag track maintenance has always been an acceptable use of red, the emphasis was on maintenance and not construction of new buildings.
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
Thats the whole point of these sort of taxes. Any time you tax a service industry that cannot face foreign competition the consumer ends up paying the tax, especially when its a critical industry that one can't do without. This isn't a tax on construction, its a stealth tax on the public.
Yes. The constructions industry is one industry that could not claim that they would be undermined by foreign competition because you cant construct an entire building abroad and magically place it anywhere here.

However, farming is a different matter. Food is something that could be grown abroad. If Red diesel was banned from UK Ag without some sort of rebate, Countries that still have a fuel rebate would have an unfair advantage.
So unless at least the EU bans Red (or Green!) I can’t see the UK government banning it here. Or allowing farmers to claim a rebate for diesel used for Ag purpose.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
Remember who else uses red other than agriculture, marine and construction. Hospital/emergency power generators and rail. Where would the costs of scrapping the red rebate fall from those?
 

daveydiesel1

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Co antrim
This wouldn’t be the end of the world. Red diesel isn’t duty free now anyway. It’s just a lower duty rate.

Does anybody use Ultra 35 diesel?
This is Diesel without any of the renewable content that Red and Derv has in it.
As I understand it, it is used for engines that might not get regular enough use, where any renewable part of the fuel might cause damage to the engine by blocking the fuel system.
I’ve had problems on my working classics where this has happened.
Ultra 35 is cheaper than Red.
Will new engines run on ultra 35 and does all diesel suppliers supply it or only some of them?
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands

I've looked at this before. It won't run in modern common rail engines. BS2869 spec has a lower cetane rating & played hell with my old JD engines. Swapping to EN590 spec cured that.
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
Imagine if the farm diesel tank and tractors were full of white......probably need a 24 hr armed guard to keep the light fingered b@$tards out!!!!!😳

That was one of my points for keeping Red, you’ve got to actually catch someone nicking it if it’s white, with red you’ve got the opportunity of dipping their tank and doing them for evasion of duty, even if they hadn’t paid for it in the first instance. Personally if Red went I’d fill up at a fuel station. I’m fairly convinced that the general public would think that the removal of Red was a bad idea when I was in front of them at 8.30 on a Monday morning sticking 800 litres in the combine.
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
Will new engines run on ultra 35 and does all diesel suppliers supply it or only some of them?
As far as I know Yes to both questions.
Many fuel distributors will claim its main use to be used to replace Red for heating purposes.
However, it is used where Hospitals or such like use Back-up generators that might not run for considerable lengths of time.

With regards modern Common Rail engines: Many have a system that will shut the engine down if the renewable fraction within the diesel is too high. There are still many countries that do not use any renewable fraction within their fuels. Also, when the price of the renewable is too high, Oil companies will not put any renewable in their fuel and willingly pay the fine for not doing so which is cheaper than the cost of the renewable part anyway. This happens very regularly now.
So modern engines have to be able to run on fuels without any renewable fraction at all.
 
Last edited:
Red should be scraped altogether to avoid fraudulent use

farmers could claim a rebate based on acres farmed

would focus the minds of some on just how much they burn pointlessly as well maybe !
So if you have small acres but use more fuel threw winter farming livestock and slurry work you’d be worse off with that logic

but you’d be fine because you nuke your land with glyco plant one crop then go skiing
 

daveydiesel1

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Co antrim
Red should be scraped altogether to avoid fraudulent use

farmers could claim a rebate based on acres farmed

would focus the minds of some on just how much they burn pointlessly as well maybe !
But each farms fuel use is different. Depending on what is being farmed, distance between yard and land, how intense, how much maintenance/land improvement is being done, even if arable is it being ploughed and cultivated before sowing compared to straight sowing, what about potatoes then 100 acres of it will burn alot of fuel compared to 100 acres being grazed by suckler cows that stay outside in winter. Ur idea of diesel doesnt add up on paper never mind in real life
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
So if you have small acres but use more fuel threw winter farming livestock and slurry work you’d be worse off with that logic

but you’d be fine because you nuke your land with glyco plant one crop then go skiing

the rebate could be set to allow a livestock farmer an appropriate extra amount - a genuine user of red need be no worse off

its the sinple way to stop all the fraudulent and miss use we see
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
But each farms fuel use is different. Depending on what is being farmed, distance between yard and land, how intense, how much maintenance/land improvement is being done, even if arable is it being ploughed and cultivated before sowing compared to straight sowing, what about potatoes then 100 acres of it will burn alot of fuel compared to 100 acres being grazed by suckler cows that stay outside in winter. Ur idea of diesel doesnt add up on paper never mind in real life

see above - rebate could suit farming system

if you used more than average comparable business you would need to get efficient then i guess

kind of initiative our climate kind of needs !! and stops the gypo’s and people that use it for jobs they should not overnight
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
Red should be scraped altogether to avoid fraudulent use

farmers could claim a rebate based on acres farmed

would focus the minds of some on just how much they burn pointlessly as well maybe !
Agree with your first bit.
But too many holes in your last argument.
This would be grossly unfair to those who will have to dry far more of their grain each year, for instance.

If a rebate is claimed by any farmer, it would need to be on its entire usage of diesel used on a farm. This would risk it being used in their diesel fuelled cars as well. So the best way to do it it continue with a separate colour.
However, the separate Red could be charged at the same rate as DERV, with a claimable rebate for the Red.
This would prevent cars from using the Red.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 79 42.0%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 35.1%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.0%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,291
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top