copper deficiency in sheep

[spark_28]

have a bad lamb that looks deformed with a swaying back and a bent back leg. Vet (over the phone ) reckons copper deficiency.

Have had my worst lambing in a long time, low prolificy, felt some of the lambs were slow to get going, 3/4 lambs born with bad legs, some sheep tight to lamb and sheep in poor condition (were getting well fed) and 3 abortions and a lamb born prematurely by about 3 weeks (dead) could all this be attributed to this? all my problems were all in gimmers i bought in (from the same place as my gimmers before) everything was bolused last year, first time ive ever bolused too.

any ideas

 

[neilo]

Did the boluses have copper in?

Copper deficiency, whether actual or as a result of a lock up, can certainly knock prolificacy and condition. A relatively cheap forage test would give you a clue (look for copper level and high molybdenum levels), if you haven't already done so before bolusing. Blood testing is pretty well a waste of time for copper IME.

 

[hill shepherd]

I'd agree with that, we've blood tested and vet says copper is ok but still get lambs with swayback. Think we'll be doing them with copper next year

 

[ford4000]

Did the boluses have copper in?

Copper deficiency, whether actual or as a result of a lock up, can certainly knock prolificacy and condition. A relatively cheap forage test would give you a clue (look for copper level and high molybdenum levels), if you haven't already done so before bolusing. Blood testing is pretty well a waste of time for copper IME.

I agree, we've treated with copper to prevent swayback for as long as I can remember, so imagine my surprise when blood tests said copper levels were OK or even a touch high!!
Forage tests showing high molybdenum levels solved the puzzle

 

[hill shepherd]

I agree, we've treated with copper to prevent swayback for as long as I can remember, so imagine my surprise when blood tests said copper levels were OK or even a touch high!!
Forage tests showing high molybdenum levels solved the puzzle

That must be our problem

 

[neilo]

I’ve posted this before, but when we came here I had lambs dieing of copper deficiency (basically scouring themselves to death). Blood tests showed copper levels as OK, but sky high molybdenum was making it all unavailable.

Even pedigree Texel/Beltex sheep in these parts need copper supplementation.

 

[Agrivator]

Unless you've got highly susceptible breeds on high levels of concentrates, any cake fed in modest quantities to pregnant ewes should be either beef nuts or dairy nuts with medium copper levels.

 

[Nithsdale]

Unless you've got highly susceptible breeds on high levels of concentrates, any cake fed in modest quantities to pregnant ewes should be either beef nuts or dairy nuts with medium copper levels.

Without knowing the farm this is exceptionally poor advice.

My neighbor lost around 10% of his Scotch Mule flock to copper poisoning from feeding cattle cake after taking similar "advice"

 

[Agrivator]

Without knowing the farm this is exceptionally poor advice.

My neighbor lost around 10% of his Scotch Mule flock to copper poisoning from feeding cattle cake after taking similar "advice"

Is your neighbour quite happy to have such a disaster quoted on a public form?

How much was he feeding? Were they also receiving additional copper supplementation? Did he/she obtain an expert diagnosis.? What was the copper level in PPM in the cake?

 

[Nithsdale]

If you mean do they admit they f**ked up, then yes. My neighbours identity is still anonymous, would you rather I just said I know someone?

Ofcourse the vets were involved. It was fed to twin and triplet ewes so I'd presume 700g+ daily. I'm not sure the feed analysis - why would I know that? But if you'd like I could tell you who supplied the feed? They've never given extra copper.


The point is, despite your deflection, suggesting feeding cattle and dairy cake without knowing more (of the sheep and land) is just f**king stupid.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

We’ve had one lamb with what I think must have been swayback this year, but I didn’t think of it. Only mild, I was thinking he may have twisted his back or something.

I noticed a distinct and rapid improvement when he started taking creep. Two weeks later you would never know.

 

[Woolless]

Unless you've got highly susceptible breeds on high levels of concentrates, any cake fed in modest quantities to pregnant ewes should be either beef nuts or dairy nuts with medium copper levels.

Without knowing the farm this is exceptionally poor advice.

My neighbor lost around 10% of his Scotch Mule flock to copper poisoning from feeding cattle cake after taking similar "advice"

Far better, and safer, to provide the copper requirement in bolus form rather than risk this type of scenario.

 

[Anymulewilldo]

I’ve posted this before, but when we came here I had lambs dieing of copper deficiency (basically scouring themselves to death). Blood tests showed copper levels as OK, but sky high molybdenum was making it all unavailable.

Even pedigree Texel/Beltex sheep in these parts need copper supplementation.

Exactly the same here. Our texel crosses always need the copper same as the Mules or it’s just a great load of barrens and swayback!

 

[hill shepherd]

We’ve had one lamb with what I think must have been swayback this year, but I didn’t think of it. Only mild, I was thinking he may have twisted his back or something.

I noticed a distinct and rapid improvement when he started taking creep. Two weeks later you would never know.

We've had them like this before, they seem to get better but you'll know which they are by Autumn

 

[Rod Dumbreck]

We’ve had one lamb with what I think must have been swayback this year, but I didn’t think of it. Only mild, I was thinking he may have twisted his back or something.

I noticed a distinct and rapid improvement when he started taking creep. Two weeks later you would never know.

Im posting this to ask those who know more about this to comment, but I was assured that the copper deficiency in the ewe caused the swayback, the damage was done before birth and couldn't be put right. Ive only ever had one case and euthanised at about a month because it seemed the right thing to do.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Well hopefully it wasn’t swayback then. He looks grand now at 5-6 weeks old.

 

[neilo]

Im posting this to ask those who know more about this to comment, but I was assured that the copper deficiency in the ewe caused the swayback, the damage was done before birth and couldn't be put right. Ive only ever had one case and euthanised at about a month because it seemed the right thing to do.

That was always my understanding. We certainly never had any come right when we used to have a few (mule ewes). We had to give a copper injection in the last third of pregnancy to prevent it.
Changed to Texel cross ewes on the same management and never saw swayback again (or copper jabs).

 

[Agrivator]

Far better, and safer, to provide the copper requirement in bolus form rather than risk this type of scenario.

As a former nutritionist with SAC, I remember Neville Suttle of Moredun stating that more sheep die from Copper deficiency than from Copper toxicity.

Sheep nuts tend to be up to £50/t dearer than beef nuts, even at similar specifications. It’s what the market can bear.

The background copper levels in sheep nuts, at about 9ppm. are usually too low in most situations, particularly when fed outside where iron contamination from soil, and iron in free-access minerals, tend to reduce its availability. And copper availability is even lower on humose/peaty soils, particularly where liming and reseeding has occurred.

In that situation, beef nuts or dairy nuts with about 25 ppm copper are perfectly suitable at normal feed rates.

And where sheep are housed for up to 4 weeks around lambing time, there is no reason why they cannot continue on the same concentrate where feed levels are no more than about 500 gms daily.

At higher levels of feeding, or where particularly susceptible breeds are involved, a concentrate with lower copper should be used. Our local compounder produces two similar beef nuts - One with 31 ppm copper and another with 9ppm copper. We buy them mixed at whatever proportion we ask, usually 1:1. and there is no reason why any other sheep farmer who uses nuts can't do the same.

And it has a longer term benefit. Enhanced liver-levels of copper in ewes fed sufficient copper during the normal period of concentrate feeding tend to make use of that copper during the rest of the year. Of course there have been many situation where sheep, particularly where tup breeders with susceptible breeds fed enhanced levels of copper over long periods, have suffered from copper toxicity, and that is why manufacturers for fear of litigation, daren’t add copper to their sheep feeds.

It’s also worth pointing out that in open winters, where concentrate feeding is delayed and/or reduced, lambs are more likely to suffer from swayback. In that situation, there is even more benefit in feeding beef or diary at sensible levels. The alternative might be to bolus - but some sheep die from bolussing, and there were some horrendous disasters when copper needles were used.

 

[Chasingmytail]

we use these

Also when indoors they have Rookies lick blocks too.

 

[Woolless]

As a former nutritionist with SAC, I remember Neville Suttle of Moredun stating that more sheep die from Copper deficiency than from Copper toxicity.

Sheep nuts tend to be up to £50/t dearer than beef nuts, even at similar specifications. It’s what the market can bear.

The background copper levels in sheep nuts, at about 9ppm. are usually too low in most situations, particularly when fed outside where iron contamination from soil, and iron in free-access minerals, tend to reduce its availability. And copper availability is even lower on humose/peaty soils, particularly where liming and reseeding has occurred.

In that situation, beef nuts or dairy nuts with about 25 ppm copper are perfectly suitable at normal feed rates.

And where sheep are housed for up to 4 weeks around lambing time, there is no reason why they cannot continue on the same concentrate where feed levels are no more than about 500 gms daily.

At higher levels of feeding, or where particularly susceptible breeds are involved, a concentrate with lower copper should be used. Our local compounder produces two similar beef nuts - One with 31 ppm copper and another with 9ppm copper. We buy them mixed at whatever proportion we ask, usually 1:1. and there is no reason why any other sheep farmer who uses nuts can't do the same.

And it has a longer term benefit. Enhanced liver-levels of copper in ewes fed sufficient copper during the normal period of concentrate feeding tend to make use of that copper during the rest of the year. Of course there have been many situation where sheep, particularly where tup breeders with susceptible breeds fed enhanced levels of copper over long periods, have suffered from copper toxicity, and that is why manufacturers for fear of litigation, daren’t add copper to their sheep feeds.

It’s also worth pointing out that in open winters, where concentrate feeding is delayed and/or reduced, lambs are more likely to suffer from swayback. In that situation, there is even more benefit in feeding beef or diary at sensible levels. The alternative might be to bolus - but some sheep die from bolussing, and there were some horrendous disasters when copper needles were used.

Interesting, thanks. We have copper lock up here, so I prefer to bolus to provide year round cover.