Cost of rent per acre

[BELOWAVERAGE]

You must have lost your calculator

To be fair he said excellent grass, which sounds well in line to me, you can rent cheap all day long but if it's poor grass/ground it'll cost.

 

[ReeceJ]

It is a bit steep in price but doable. Lack of water supply is a big obstacle, you need fresh water to wash your hands at the very least. You also needs toilets and shed storage space somewhere. Onsite storage is fairly essential unless you propose to cart in all your daily needs every day, any storage also needs to be extra secure if you are suburban.
It would probably make more sense to get a less suburban site with a lower rent, water and storage area. Not easy to come by but not a reason to take an unsuitable site.

Thanks. We'll need mains water as you point out so we will need to pay to bring it onto the site. Then buy a couple of shipping containers for secure storage. Toilet - we will have to buy a portaloo or a little caravan. Finding somewhere near enough has been very difficult - it's location, location, location. We're prepared to pay a premium - just 10 times is too much, thinking 4 !

 

[Kidds]

it's location, location, location

Only if you have a farm shop really.
The ones I see doing well in market gardening are more rural and doing box fruit/veg into the towns and cities. The location ones are drawing their money from onsite visitors sitting and taking in the view while drinking coffee and eating ice cream with the farm shop an excuse to draw them in.

 

[ReeceJ]

Only if you have a farm shop really.
The ones I see doing well in market gardening are more rural and doing box fruit/veg into the towns and cities. The location ones are drawing their money from onsite visitors sitting and taking in the view while drinking coffee and eating ice cream with the farm shop an excuse to draw them in.

Great point. We wont have permission for a farm shop or cafe, but we can sell unprocessed produce that we grow on site. It's also literally 5 minutes drive from our home whch is worth a premium to us in terms of travel costs and time - but as I say 10 times is too high

 

[Estate fencing.]

Thanks. We'll need mains water as you point out so we will need to pay to bring it onto the site. Then buy a couple of shipping containers for secure storage. Toilet - we will have to buy a portaloo or a little caravan. Finding somewhere near enough has been very difficult - it's location, location, location. We're prepared to pay a premium - just 10 times is too much, thinking 4 !

That's only £3000 a year, you would have to pay me more than that to make a shanty town in one of my fields (if I owned any that is).Iv got a farm business tenancy and I'm not allowed to leave anything lying around, feed stock on the ground (unless heavy snow fall) or make temporary structures.

 

[ReeceJ]

That's only £3000 a year, you would have to pay me more than that to make a shanty town in one of my fields (if I owned any that is).Iv got a farm business tenancy and I'm not allowed to leave anything lying around, feed stock on the ground (unless heavy snow fall) or make temporary structures.

Thanks. It's really helpful to get other viewpoints. We just need to get a sense of perspective on what's reasonable. When the DEFRA rate is £10/acre and we're being asked for £100/acre we need to understand why there is such a difference.

 

[Highland Mule]

Thanks. It's really helpful to get other viewpoints. We just need to get a sense of perspective on what's reasonable. When the DEFRA rate is £10/acre and we're being asked for £100/acre we need to understand why there is such a difference.

Have a think from the other side. Would you let someone devalue and mess up a £50k asset for £6 a week? It’s got to be worth the owners’ time to let you do that.

 

[Alchad]

Agree with what Highland Mule said, it’s got to be worth it to the owner, the “buggeration” factor massively tilts the balance.

ALSO, you mention container, toilets etc, have you considered planning requirements?

 

[Jackov Altraids]

It is also worth bearing in mind that all the money that you will be 'investing' into the field, is also a potential cost to the owner to return it to its previous condition.

 

[teslacoils]

Thanks. It's really helpful to get other viewpoints. We just need to get a sense of perspective on what's reasonable. When the DEFRA rate is £10/acre and we're being asked for £100/acre we need to understand why there is such a difference.

Depending on location you can forget "agricultural" rates. If it would make a half decent pony paddock here in rural Lincolnshire you'll rent it for £10/wk per acre. So anywhere reasonably urban could double that. Makes it several times more than the acre rate for 150ac of arable.

The difference, is supply and demand.

 

[Tarw Coch]

Thanks. It's really helpful to get other viewpoints. We just need to get a sense of perspective on what's reasonable. When the DEFRA rate is £10/acre and we're being asked for £100/acre we need to understand why there is such a difference.

What’s the DEFRA rate?
Never heard of it

 

[CopperBeech]

To be fair he said excellent grass, which sounds well in line to me, you can rent cheap all day long but if it's poor grass/ground it'll cost.

Agreed to a point. But at 200 an acre you’d expect security of tenure, probably buildings or a house and the subsidy in with it ..... and it would still look steep

 

[Kidds]

It is also worth bearing in mind that all the money that you will be 'investing' into the field, is also a potential cost to the owner to return it to its previous condition.

Not really, we have been market gardeners here for 70 years and having now packed in and tidied up you would hardly know we were ever here. Sheep farmers with wire, rotten posts, silage wrap, mineral buckets etc routinely make more mess from what I have seen. There is certainly no need to expect any more mess than any other method of farming.

 

[delilah]

We're in a West Yorkshire city being offered a 2.5 acre field at £100 per acre per month to set up a market garden business. We've calculated that that's around 10 times the FBT rate that DEFRA publish. It has a great location - almost suburban but surrounded by open space and with road access. but no water on site and the electricity meter would need 100 metres of armoured cable to reach the field. We believe the landlord is open to negotiation but we're struggling to come up with a fair offer based on the location. Would appreciate suggestions and comparative prices. Thanks !

If you haven't already, join the LWA and/or CSA, they will be able to give you some indication as to what rent others are paying, that will give you a starting point/ bargaining tool.

https://landworkersalliance.org.uk/
https://communitysupportedagriculture.org.uk/

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Not really, we have been market gardeners here for 70 years and having now packed in and tidied up you would hardly know we were ever here. Sheep farmers with wire, rotten posts, silage wrap, mineral buckets etc routinely make more mess from what I have seen. There is certainly no need to expect any more mess than any other method of farming.

True.

But there is POTENTIALLY a much larger cost in removing toilets, shipping containers, hard standing,legal costs to revert land use etc

All of those points could also have added value.

 

[renewablejohn]

We're in a West Yorkshire city being offered a 2.5 acre field at £100 per acre per month to set up a market garden business. We've calculated that that's around 10 times the FBT rate that DEFRA publish. It has a great location - almost suburban but surrounded by open space and with road access. but no water on site and the electricity meter would need 100 metres of armoured cable to reach the field. We believe the landlord is open to negotiation but we're struggling to come up with a fair offer based on the location. Would appreciate suggestions and comparative prices. Thanks !

Personally for that price I would not touch it with a barge pole. Now if it had been market growing land for the last 10 years with all the goodness in the soil then it would be worth every penny and more besides. It will probably take 5 years of hard work and compost before you get consistent crops suitable for market. I was the first to do landshare in the UK with plots of only 120 m2 each but by the time of the 2nd flush of weeds most had given up the ghost. Being in West Yorkshire you will need polytunnels to get any sort of all year round cropping and if not already there the chance of planning in a suburban environment is remote. I am just over the border in East Lancs if you want to see what sort of mess can be made of the land by this type of operation. It will probably take me another three years to restore back to the working horticulture site it once was.

 

[ReeceJ]

What’s the DEFRA rate?
Never heard of it

DEFRA publish details of costs per hectare for different typs of agrement in different parts of the country https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/busi...nd-out-average-farm-rents-where-you-live-2021

 

[ReeceJ]

True.

But there is POTENTIALLY a much larger cost in removing toilets, shipping containers, hard standing,legal costs to revert land use etc

All of those points could also have added value.

Appreciate that we'd have to take everything with us at the end of the lease... there's nowt there at the moment apart frpm 6 ft high thistles and grass!

 

[ReeceJ]

Personally for that price I would not touch it with a barge pole. Now if it had been market growing land for the last 10 years with all the goodness in the soil then it would be worth every penny and more besides. It will probably take 5 years of hard work and compost before you get consistent crops suitable for market. I was the first to do landshare in the UK with plots of only 120 m2 each but by the time of the 2nd flush of weeds most had given up the ghost. Being in West Yorkshire you will need polytunnels to get any sort of all year round cropping and if not already there the chance of planning in a suburban environment is remote. I am just over the border in East Lancs if you want to see what sort of mess can be made of the land by this type of operation. It will probably take me another three years to restore back to the working horticulture site it once was.

There is already a large barn and 2 containers on part of the site (let to someone else) and it is zoned as agricultural land so shoudl be ok for polytnnels - but will def check before signing thanks for the tip. The main field is 95% long grass, with some thistle and some ragwort (which would nake it difficult/impoassible for the owners to rent it for grazing. The otherr area is full of 6feet high thistles. They have said they will take responsibility for mowing the hay, but it will still have stubble. On the + side it's been fallow for many years and reputedley has several feet of soil. It has farmland adjoining where crops have been grown at varous time so the soil shoudl be at least goof enough - although we will get some soil tests. Thanks for the advce - we'll take care and get the soil tests before agreeing final terms!

 

[renewablejohn]

There is already a large barn and 2 containers on part of the site (let to someone else) and it is zoned as agricultural land so shoudl be ok for polytnnels - but will def check before signing thanks for the tip. The main field is 95% long grass, with some thistle and some ragwort (which would nake it difficult/impoassible for the owners to rent it for grazing. The otherr area is full of 6feet high thistles. They have said they will take responsibility for mowing the hay, but it will still have stubble. On the + side it's been fallow for many years and reputedley has several feet of soil. It has farmland adjoining where crops have been grown at varous time so the soil shoudl be at least goof enough - although we will get some soil tests. Thanks for the advce - we'll take care and get the soil tests before agreeing final terms!

Dont want to sound rude but have you actually grown commercial grade vegetable crops on agricultural land. Just because its zoned as agricultural land means nothing in terms of getting polytunnels. From what ypu describe you have at least 5 years of mediocre crops before seeing a commercial crop unless you go down the imported compost route. Being fallow just means you have a weed problem which will cost a fortune in sprays or heat treatment to rectify. Not saying it cannot be done but dont under estimate the effort required. I am in the fortunate position of knowing a lot of short cuts to reduce the horticulture effort required. My biggest mistake with landshare and the reason for its failure was the assumption that everyone knew these short cuts or at least would be willing to learn these short cuts. How wrong could I be.