Council Bans Unstunned Meat

[unlacedgecko]

I don’t know, never looked into it

They're probably upset at having to pay for the disposal of the foetus as it represents extra green offal weight.

Do they buy dead weight or liveweight?

If liveweight, then a foetus would also mean an increased price per kg of useable meat.

I doubt they have taken this stance on ethical/humane grounds.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

They're probably upset at having to pay for the disposal of the foetus as it represents extra green offal weight.

Do they buy dead weight or liveweight?

If liveweight, then a foetus would also mean an increased price per kg of useable meat.

They wouldn’t be upset about disposing of the extra offal as they’d just deduct it off your carcass value, I’m guessing that as a supermarket supplier they (and I’ve been and seen for myself) they don’t want that sort of thing going on

 

[willy]

I totally disagree with this council ban,a huge percentage of meat in the world is halhal. Someone else somewhere else will fill the demand slot. Do a couple of seconds being stunned make that much difference in the last minute of life, or is it more for the conscience of the slaughter man?

 

[Northeastfarmer]

I totally disagree with this council ban,a huge percentage of meat in the world is halhal. Someone else somewhere else will fill the demand slot. Do a couple of seconds being stunned make that much difference in the last minute of life, or is it more for the conscience of the slaughter man?

Depends how you’d want to end your last minute of life....choking on your own blood as your throat was split or a hole in your head and sent unconscious

 

[yellowbelly]

So what would have been the correct course of action in that case?

I appreciate the scanner man may miss the odd one but if you've kept it another 70 days after scanning it's a poor stockman that doesn't know or at least doesn't check to see it's not 'showing' before loading it for a cull market. That close to lambing the right thing to do is lamb it down and rear lambs or sell accordingly.

 

[CornishTone]

As I understand it, 80% of halal slaughter in the UK is conducted with pre-stunning. If it’s acceptable to 80% of Muslim consumers, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be acceptable to 100% of them. There doesn’t need to be any knock on effect to the sheep industry from a halal point of view, just a tightening of the rules/loop holes.

Kosher, on the other hand, is a different story. There appears to be no wriggle room in this case, but the real travesty is that only the front half of the beast is used and the rest is dumped on the open market.

Labelling is the key IMHO. A clear symbol denoting whether or not the animal has been stunned is all that is needed, and let Joe Public decide for themselves. Then we’ll see what the customer really wants!

As for importing non-stunned meat from abroad if it was banned here, there should be no imported meats that do not adhere to the same welfare standards as the country into which it is being imported.

I know the importation of New Zealand lamb causes much controversy amongst UK farmers, but all their lamb is halal and all is pre-stunned as I understand it. If they can do it, along with a number of other countries which export meat, why can’t the UK?

Religious dogma should not come above animal welfare I’m afraid. Well done to that council!

 

[yellowbelly]

I totally disagree with this council ban,a huge percentage of meat in the world is halhal. Someone else somewhere else will fill the demand slot

It's not the halal bit that's the problem it's the non stun bit that's the problem.
We need the halal customers but currently we are breaking the law (allowing non stun) so we are not seen to be offending a minority religious group.
Political correctness

 

[unlacedgecko]

They wouldn’t be upset about disposing of the extra offal as they’d just deduct it off your carcass value, I’m guessing that as a supermarket supplier they (and I’ve been and seen for myself) they don’t want that sort of thing going on

Do they weigh each offal individually?

 

[unlacedgecko]

I appreciate the scanner man may miss the odd one but if you've kept it another 70 days after scanning it's a poor stockman that doesn't know or at least doesn't check to see it's not 'showing' before loading it for a cull market. That close to lambing the right thing to do is lamb it down and rear lambs or sell accordingly.

But if she's a cull for mastitis then you've a ewe who can't rear lambs and 1 (or more!) pet lambs.

I do agree with you that animals should not being giving birth on the wagon/in lairage.

But personally I see no problem with the slaughter of pregnant females up to 1 week before due date.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

But personally I see no problem with the slaughter of pregnant females up to 1 week before due date.

Your moral compass obviously swings in a different direction to mine

 

[unlacedgecko]

Your moral compass obviously swings in a different direction to mine

Be a boring world if we were all the same

I suspect working on an indoor pig unit has somewhat hardened my attitude to some things.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

Be a boring world if we were all the same

I suspect working on an indoor pig unit has somewhat hardened my attitude to some things.

You have to remember that at the end of the day we are producing meat that the general public wants to buy and consume...,just saying

 

[Smith31]

@Smith31 please take five minutes to look over the BVA line on this issue. I think most fair minded folks would agree that as the representative professional body for those vets 'on the ground' in said slaughterhouses they are best placed to comment on this welfare issue.

https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaigns-and-policy/campaigns/an-end-to-non-stun-slaughter/

Most farmers in my experience have no issue with halal per se, non-stun is the clear welfare issue and it simply cannot be justified.

I speak to abattoir vets on a weekly basis. Most of these vets are from Europe, if the halal slaughter is performed correctly, they are perfectly happy. On the other hand, I have seen a young lady who was a vet in an abattoir, in tears, when she saw a ewe giving birth in the killing race of an abattoir. Please visit a Spanish or Italian abattoir, then compare welfare standards. You will find British abattoirs are a far superior. So this British abattoir bashing is completely unfair.

Just to highlight this fact, a well established northern abattoir has recently gone into liquidation, because it had its licence suspended hence restricting its cash flow, because the rear yard had overgrown weeds!!

Now for most British vets (especially small animal vets) yes they are anti halal, they are also against badger culling, anti hunting, they regard some practices within the dairy industry as cruel. They also don't agree with extreme selective breeding practices of meat and dairy animals, which create pain and distress to the animal. They are definitely against the transport and slaughter of pregnant animals. They are against long distance livestock haulage. They are anti live export. They would like to see more farm visits to check on animal welfare. So where do we draw the line?

With respect, my argument is not pro or anti halal. However if we are going to criticise halal and our best sheep customers on an open forum, (which they have open access to) on a weekly basis we should also discuss;

Why do we have pregnant ewes coming from Ireland, sold at Northern marts, then travelling to southern abattoirs, is this morally correct?.

Why are farmers keeping cull animals in pain for so long that by the time they reach the abattoir, infected joints have to be removed regularly!

Why do I regularly see cull animals with extreme breathing problems, once slaughtered we find the lungs stuck to the rib cage, or severe leakage of puss?

Why are tups and bulls with swollen testicles sent for slaughter, as a man I'm sure they are in pain!

Why do slaughtermen have to remove calves from cull animals on the slaughter hall?

Why do we have ewes giving birth in abattoir lairages?

 

[neilo]

But if she's a cull for mastitis then you've a ewe who can't rear lambs and 1 (or more!) pet lambs.

I do agree with you that animals should not being giving birth on the wagon/in lairage.

But personally I see no problem with the slaughter of pregnant females up to 1 week before due date.

I'd put the limit a lot earlier than a week before due, but I see no problem at all with slaughtering animals that are in the early stages of pregnancy.

 

[waterbuffalofarmer]

You really think Kosher slaughter will be stopped? I think you need to check out the number of MP's and Lords who are Jewish (a fact not antisemitism BTW).

Not this again!!!
There is nothing wrong with Kosher slaughter, it's quick, effective and the animal doesn't feel or know a thing. How do I know? You may well ask. The knife they use is like a sword, sharper than a razor and sharpened between each and every animal. The death is quick and instantaneous. How do I know? Because I've seen it done before. Believe me no suffering at all.

 

[The_Swede]

This is in no way general 'abattoir bashing'.

Referring to foreign or extreme cases to attempt to legitimise a process scientifically shown to increase suffering at slaughter is no good either. It simply isn't necessary and entirely avoidable. Each individual issue you highlight should be dealt with in turn be it transport , farm welfare and so on.

Welfare is welfare and we should be at the forefront of it especially with Brexit pending.

Away from general welfare my personal view is that this country should not pander to extreme religious interpretations whatever guise they come in, this is but one such example.

 

[CornishTone]

Not this again!!!
There is nothing wrong with Kosher slaughter, it's quick, effective and the animal doesn't feel or know a thing. How do I know? You may well ask. The knife they use is like a sword, sharper than a razor and sharpened between each and every animal. The death is quick and instantaneous. How do I know? Because I've seen it done before. Believe me no suffering at all.

This isn’t, or shouldn’t be, about whether Kosher is better than halal or the other way round. It’s about what’s best for the animal, and every scrap of peer reviewed evidence suggests that pre-stunning is the most appropriate and pain free method of slaughter.

Sorry if I can’t simply take your word for it, I’m sure you saw what you say you did, but the research says stunning is better. I’ll go with the research and a better method given the choice.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

Most kosher slaughter uses instantaneous post stun now. Still not ideal like

 

[Doc]

I too have witnessed non pre-stun slaughter on many occasions.
I would like to think I'm a realist in terms of understanding the 'real world' and economics of meat production and the compromises that sometimes need to be made from 'ideal' e.g.: live markets, transport to centralised plants, live export etc.
However, welfare at the time of killing is one area I cannot see or justify any compromise. Pre stun should be mandatory imo and we do the industry and it's animal product a huge disservice by compromise on this issue.
If it can be done in Indonesia, where there has been huge improvement in welfare in abattoirs and finishing units of exported cattle in a devoutly Muslim country, it can be done here. Political backbone required.

 

[Raider112]

I’d imagine with a view for prosecution

A couple of years ago we lambed about 15 Hoggs that we found to be in lamb when we were belly clipping, I'm sure there would be some in lamb earlier that we missed but I wouldn't like to be prosecuted because we bought a hogg that turned out to be a ram.