County council right of access to land

[livestock 1]

Just a fairly simple question really. We have a watercourse over some of our land which consists of a ditch which the council have decided they are going to do some work on. I caught two contractors walking it in May but they only told me they had been sent to check it and I asked them to get the council man to ring me after I chased them, I’m still waiting for the call.
I found out on Friday in a round about way off another council man that there was a big project planned concerning this ditch by the local rivers trust and the council. This is private land no paths no open access.
After their admission of many site visits by themselves and the rivers trust and no contact to myself, do they have the right to enter my land without at least asking?
What makes it more annoying is that when my neighbour had a contractor there in April with a 360 machine I got him to clear this ditch out which was reported to the council. Now they have paid the rivers trust £3000 to survey it and they have concluded it would be a good idea to clean it out!!! Again! Even though it’s been done and paid for by myself.
I can’t believe I’m writing this!

 

[George from SJM Planning]

I'm not a big fan of Land Agents generally but this sounds like something they would be best placed to handle

 

[livestock 1]

I'm not a big fan of Land Agents generally but this sounds like something they would be best placed to handle

Yes. I have agents working here 24/7 here unfortunately it’s part of life now.
I am working with both the council and the rivers trust on some other separate projects on good terms on our land.
I was just asking generally before I have a set too with them.
As far as I’m aware they don’t have authority.
Funnily enough the council did tell me earlier this year how they were on bad terms with landowners and wanted to change this.

 

[br jones]

Yes. I have agents working here 24/7 here unfortunately it’s part of life now.
I am working with both the council and the rivers trust on some other separate projects on good terms on our land.
I was just asking generally before I have a set too with them.
As far as I’m aware they don’t have authority.
Funnily enough the council did tell me earlier this year how they were on bad terms with landowners and wanted to change this.

Well organize a site meeting with you ,them and land agents ,see what they want ? Then go from there

 

[livestock 1]

Well organize a site meeting with you ,them and land agents ,see what they want ? Then go from there

Already have done that this morning

 

[Kidds]

Just give them a damned good shouting at. Doesn't matter if they have rights or not, just demand respectful and courteous behaviour from them or else.
Even if they have rights this will make them think twice about entering without asking you first. Only effective way t do things these days unfortunately.

Had the same myself. EA parked two cars in my yard, walked right past me without even acknowledging my presence and carried on. I told them that unless they come back and ask me nicely if it was ok their cars might be on fire when they get back.
You shouldn't have to behave like that but it get's their attention quick and next time they are polite. If they had asked first I would simply smile and say yes.

 

[Flat 10]

I didn’t know councils had any interests in watercourses at all. Here they are either EA or IDB or private AFAIK.

 

[goodevans]

I didn’t know councils had any interests in watercourses at all. Here they are either EA or IDB or private AFAIK.

I think you might be right there,the minute the water hits your property it becomes your problem.I guess they may be looking at ways to get it to leave the highway quicker

 

[Smith31]

Sorry maybe missing the point, but are we as farmers/landowners not responsible for the flow and clearance of watercourses, culverts, ditches etc on our land as riparian owners? Or do the Council also have a legal duty to maintain them?

Reason I ask is because we have a collapsed culvert, would it be worth ringing the council or should be just get on with the repairs? TIA

 

[Goweresque]

I didn’t know councils had any interests in watercourses at all. Here they are either EA or IDB or private AFAIK.

Its possible that the local council are the Drainage Authority for the area, and thus have some statutory powers. It is unusual to find a council who gives a damn about keeping drainage ditches clear, my experience is that they don't want to know most of the time.

 

[Bongodog]

I didn’t know councils had any interests in watercourses at all. Here they are either EA or IDB or private AFAIK.

Generally you are correct, a few councils however did retain watercourse management after the huge local government reorganisation in the early 1970's. In South cambridgeshire the district council are responsible for many miles of ditches, so we have landowners responsible on the higher ground, EA for the rivers and main drains, IDB's for the fen areas and South Cambs Council inbetween.

 

[br jones]

Already have done that this morning

Dont get mad there maybe something init for you

 

[bobajob]

Your lucky you can clean a ditch! Up here sepa frown upon it. I got reported for cleaning a ditch and got my knuckles rapped,- do it again and it will be a fine..

Also know of a farmer locally going to clean a ditch on their own land and the digger came off the low loader and tracked half way across the field to the ditch and sepa were there before he had taken a bucketful out of the ditch.!!

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Unless the rules have changed in the last 5 years they are probably exceeding their authority. Where are you? My experience is with English law.

The EA have "permissive powers of access" ie they should ask permission unless they are investigating a potential criminal pollution or they need access to investigate a CURRENT flood emergency. These powers fall under section 172 of the Water Resources Act 1991 and were updated in the Floods and Water Management Act 2000.

Lead Local Flood Authorities have similar powers under the Land Drainage Act, again updated in the F&WMA 2000.

If you meet staff on your land again ask them what legal powers they are exercising for access (I was legally trained several times and carried a warrant card granting powers of access for many years).

PM me if you want to discuss it further.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Unless the rules have changed in the last 5 years they are probably exceeding their authority. Where are you? My experience is with English law.

The EA have "permissive powers of access" ie they should ask permission unless they are investigating a potential criminal pollution or they need access to investigate a CURRENT flood emergency. These powers fall under section 172 of the Water Resources Act 1991 and were updated in the Floods and Water Management Act 2000.

Leaf Local Flood Authorities have similar powers under the Land Drainage Act, again updated in the F&WMA 2000.

If you meet staff on your land again ask them what legal powers they are exercising for access (I was legally trained several times and carried a warrant card granting powers of access for many years).

PM me if you want to discuss it further.

@holwellcourtfarm is the man to ask!

 

[Teejay]

Unless the rules have changed in the last 5 years they are probably exceeding their authority. Where are you? My experience is with English law.

The EA have "permissive powers of access" ie they should ask permission unless they are investigating a potential criminal pollution or they need access to investigate a CURRENT flood emergency. These powers fall under section 172 of the Water Resources Act 1991 and were updated in the Floods and Water Management Act 2000.

Leaf Local Flood Authorities have similar powers under the Land Drainage Act, again updated in the F&WMA 2000.

If you meet staff on your land again ask them what legal powers they are exercising for access (I was legally trained several times and carried a warrant card granting powers of access for many years).

PM me if you want to discuss it further.

The EA can enter your land, dump large amounts of spoil alongside a ditch, all without asking permission or saying sorry. If you want to get compensation forget it, you will just get the EA legal dept telling you they can do whatever they like.

 

[Still Farming]

Have they served notice on you and or your landlord if applicable to enter and proposed works schedules ?

 

[Teejay]

I only found out about it after the damage had already been done.

 

[livestock 1]

The council and myself have an interest in directing water away from the catchment which enters the village. They did try to put some onus onto me by saying that my current field drainage was inadequate. They threatened me with their statuary powers to enforce this. After numerous visits meetings calculations and various stalling techniques and looking at drainage bills in this field amounting to somewhere between 20 and 30k they realised that their pipe under a main road through all of the village services and another side road and caravan site wasn’t big enough. At this point they changed their tune, in other words everything was ok whilst I was spending money but not so attractive when they have to spend some.
As a good will gesture I now voluntarily flood my own land in times of flooding to elevate the problem. Their pipe would be somewhere near the six figure mark so it’s understandable why they don’t want to renew it. I advised them three years ago to improve on their drain entrance which I said I would contribute to which they disagreed with totally until Friday when they had a sudden change of heart and presented me with an agreement for me to sign. During the conversation on Friday they let squeak about this other project which up until then was unknown to me.
I have no intention to do anything to stop any progress in this situation and I am willing to contribute and have already done to help things along. I am however seriously annoyed with their underhand tactics.
I won’t be signing anything until I’ve had legal advice off my agents, found out what project B actually consists of, and given them a right bollocking.
I also have two other voluntary flood prevention projects on going with the rivers trust (we can call this project C) who are also involved in project B (which it would appear I have already done)
I hope this is clear it’s complicated to read.
Thanks for all of the information!

 

[livestock 1]

Have they served notice on you and or your landlord if applicable to enter and proposed works schedules ?

No