Cows or no cows

hoyboy

Member
I run 105 suckler cows and 1500 ewes. Not pushed to the limit of what the farm will carry by any means. I grow a bit of barley to fatten young stock and neeps for sheep. I do everything in house. I have an extensive range of machinery, all older, bought and paid for stuff. The business has no debt, were in AECS scheme and claim upland ewe hogg scheme. Overall, in a strong financial position.

For the last few years I know I would have been better off without the cattle. Sheep trade has been on fire and they have very little cost compared to cattle. Every time there is a cost it's to do with keeping a cow. Burning diesel, repairing a 150hp tractor, buying fertiliser, growing barley etc. All that and labour not getting any easier to find. My cows are productive, I've been strict on culling problem animals. This year I had 95% calves to cows put to bull. But still I don't think it adds up, not if I pay myself a realistic wage. A lot of time is spent maintaining machinery which would be unnecessary without cattle. Machines, diesel, fertiliser - All these costs have pretty much doubled in 12 months. Beef has a long way to go to catch up.

Things that make me reluctant to get rid of the cows....

I'd have to get more sheep. I could probably run 3000 ewes quite easily on my own for the most part. But I'd get there in a year or two then watch the sheep price crash. That would be my luck 😂

I would probably miss the cows.

There is the whole uncertainty over the Scottish sub payments. NFUS pushing for a stocking density based payment. Whether Scottish gov will implement their ideas is anyone's guess. If they do go with their model it would be in my interested to be as heavily stocked as possible in the run up to the changeover. We were stung with this in the past with the LFASS category thing in 2001. We missed category B by a ball hair. If we'd been category B all our hill would have been in payment region 2 instead of 3. We Certainly do not want a repeat of something like this. This is just speculation, no one seems to know what is going to happen re Scottish sub payments.

Anyway the bulls go out at the end of this month and I'm seriously considering not putting them out at all. Fattening all the cows once the calves are weaned. Cull cow price making it look even more attractive. Park all the machinery in a shed and dog and stick 3000 ewes, claim every environmental payment going. The machinery will still be there if / when the beef price catches up with input inflation. Then buy the cows back What's your thoughts?
 
Location
southwest
What will beef prices be in 5 years time? What will lamb prices be then?

Better to make an "average" profit every year than have 5 years of fortune and 5 years of famine.


Why not look at ways of making the cows more interesting/profitable? Like specialise in producing replacement heifers for other cow farmers?
 

hutchy143211

Member
Location
E. Yorkshire
Personally I think cows are the more stable/safe option. We run 70 suckled and 250 sheep as 50% of our business with arable and until the last few years beef has been our best source of income and cash flow (arable currently pipping it). I agree sheep need a lot less equipment but I think they take up a huge amount of time, particularly in the summer months when you want to be silaging or harvesting, where as cows just go out to grass and that's it.

I also think there's far too much reliance on grants with sheep, be it mobile races (we've just got one) or the land on which sheep typically run but I think at some point this bubble will burst. Coupled to this, lamb is a volatile commodity, when it's in demand its all sunshine and roses bit when it's not you can't give them away. I think people are seeing £140/head and their eyes light up but I can remember not too many years ago been in the market and with the 1 missing from the front and that was for the best of lambs.

I think overall there's a lot to be said for having more eggs in more baskets and spread the risk over 5/10/20 years.
 

wdah/him

Member
Location
tyrone
Id be more intersted to see where all the money is being spent on cattle, is all the machinery needed. We have ground further from home but dad wants us to bale it, i think it would make more sense to pay a man t mow and bale it while we do some other baling elsewhere as we can get more done in the same time as it takes to s=ove all there and comeback, any savings from doing it ourselves would be made up by having got 50% more done in the same time closer to home. Thats just as an example. Would less cows mean less costs per head, can the system be changed has an outsider looked at it from a different perspective, a lot of farms I bale for do the same things year in year out just because it is how it was always done even when the numbers of cattle has changed.
 

hoyboy

Member
Mixed grazing leaves the farm tidier.
Cows will have their day too.
Where would you put the £100k income from the cows to stop taxman taking it?
Do you dislike the cows?
Agree on cattle grazing complimenting sheep grazing. Would need to look into tax side of it I am aware they're is way of deferring tax on a stock reduction basis. I don't dislike the cows themselves, no. I do dislike the stress of equipment breaking down at peak times and having to spend countless hours fixing stuff then the weather turns and you miss your chance. The worry of not finding staff. Spending 20k a year on diesel (maybe more like 30k this year?) 40k on fert (at this year's prices) 10k on a tractor gearbox.... Before anyone suggest a new tractor or newer equipment. It has to pay its way and at current prices not a chance.
 

Werzle

Member
Location
Midlands
Agree on cattle grazing complimenting sheep grazing. Would need to look into tax side of it I am aware they're is way of deferring tax on a stock reduction basis. I don't dislike the cows themselves, no. I do dislike the stress of equipment breaking down at peak times and having to spend countless hours fixing stuff then the weather turns and you miss your chance. The worry of not finding staff. Spending 20k a year on diesel (maybe more like 30k this year?) 40k on fert (at this year's prices) 10k on a tractor gearbox.... Before anyone suggest a new tractor or newer equipment. It has to pay its way and at current prices not a chance.
Tbh on a farm your size with no debts buying some new reliable kit is a no brainer
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Agree on cattle grazing complimenting sheep grazing. Would need to look into tax side of it I am aware they're is way of deferring tax on a stock reduction basis. I don't dislike the cows themselves, no. I do dislike the stress of equipment breaking down at peak times and having to spend countless hours fixing stuff then the weather turns and you miss your chance. The worry of not finding staff. Spending 20k a year on diesel (maybe more like 30k this year?) 40k on fert (at this year's prices) 10k on a tractor gearbox.... Before anyone suggest a new tractor or newer equipment. It has to pay its way and at current prices not a chance.
You keep mentioning fert as a cost for the cows, do you not fert the sheep ground?
Perhaps you're thinking mowing ground and the sheep don't get much silage?
Without cattle and increasing sheep you'll need to mow more for the sheep?
 

hoyboy

Member
Tbh on a farm your size with no debts buying some new reliable kit is a no brainer
I don't know how 100 cows would ever pay for a 150k tractor. Could I afford it? Probably but it wouldn't be the cows that bought it. Sure It be nice to have for a little while then once it's 6 or 7 years old it'll need tyres at £4k, maybe a £12k gearbox rebuild. Or I could change it for a new one that will be good for another 6 or 7 years I'd maybe get 75k for the old one and now the new one will now be 200k. I suppose all my old machinery doesn't cost much other than time and welding rods but it does get a bit stressful at times. I reckon if I was to replace everything I have for a brand new equivalent it'd be upwards of 1.5m worth of kit so that won't be happening. Only thing we change regularly are quad bikes.
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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