Cross Bred Tups - Any good?

[Bury the Trash]

Sufftex (with good relevant ebv's ) have given quicker doing and better grading lambs here .........almost as good as a good Charolais...... only with a bit more protection from the weather at birth

 

[Sir loin]

I use char x beltex on lleyns and breed my own tups Charolais tup on Beltex ewe not the conventional way but very pleased with the progeny.

 

[Al R]

We use all crossbred Rams as it was a struggle to keep pure suffolks and beltex going with the suffolks being such poor mothers and lambs such poor vigour and then the beltex we had 2 ewes and 2 Rams. We decided to cross the Suffolk, Charolais, texel's and beltex together and after 12-15 years of doing it we have some very good Rams, yearlings weighing 100kg plus and they are all mating by 7-8months old.

^^ This shows the terminal flock ewes which are also crossbred. The 3 shorn on the right were all 16months old at the time of photo and all reared twins.

This ram above was 12 months old at the time of photo, he's a Suffchartexbelt, the shearers were checking the teeth on all the Rams as they were doing them as they couldn't believe the size of the yearlings! They'd been at a famous "breeding programs" farm the day before and we're shocked at the size of our crossbreds.

 

[glensman]

According to my mother I don't need to experience putting my finger in the fire.

nicely avoided

 

[gatepost]

Sufftex (with good relevant ebv's ) have given quicker doing and better grading lambs here .........almost as good as a good Charolais...... only with a bit more protection from the weather at birth

No offence but how can a cross bred have any relevant EBVs, at best the cohort will be too small to be meaningful, but good marketing.

 

[Ysgythan]

Well I think im decided.
I've got my own accidental Suff X Tex tup lamb kicking about, as a pure accident - but He will be going over the lot.
Decided against buying one in as I agree with comments above about similar.

The ewes hes going over are a stabilised home bred cross of Hill x Texel x hill x easycare selected for consistent easy do-ing. The lambs will be better than my home bred maternals anyway, and are all destined for Killing so its an experiment and we shall see!

At least you've worked out a plan. It's the impulse buys of various strains of mongrels I can't understand.

 

[gatepost]

What would anyone rather have? A cross bred tup who leaves good lambs or a pure one who doesn't?

Or, What would you rather have? A cross bred tup that might leave any thing or a pure bred that leaves consistently good lambs, can work either way every time you buy a new tup it's a gamble. But Gregor Mendel got it right. basic genetics. nothing to do with selling rams.

 

[Bury the Trash]

No offence but how can a cross bred have any relevant EBVs, at best the cohort will be too small to be meaningful, but good marketing.

i think perhaps you need to do some more research. .

no offence.

 

[dogandstick]

We use all crossbred Rams as it was a struggle to keep pure suffolks and beltex going with the suffolks being such poor mothers and lambs such poor vigour and then the beltex we had 2 ewes and 2 Rams. We decided to cross the Suffolk, Charolais, texel's and beltex together and after 12-15 years of doing it we have some very good Rams, yearlings weighing 100kg plus and they are all mating by 7-8months old.

View attachment 563754
^^ This shows the terminal flock ewes which are also crossbred. The 3 shorn on the right were all 16months old at the time of photo and all reared twins.

View attachment 563758
This ram above was 12 months old at the time of photo, he's a Suffchartexbelt, the shearers were checking the teeth on all the Rams as they were doing them as they couldn't believe the size of the yearlings! They'd been at a famous "breeding programs" farm the day before and we're shocked at the size of our crossbreds.

Is that why they left some unshorn?

 

[Al R]

Is that why they left some unshorn?

We had a MASSIVE downpour so had to cancel shearing that day so only half in that flock got done.

 

[CopperBeech]

Well I think im decided.
I've got my own accidental Suff X Tex tup lamb kicking about, as a pure accident - but He will be going over the lot.
Decided against buying one in as I agree with comments above about similar.

The ewes hes going over are a stabilised home bred cross of Hill x Texel x hill x easycare selected for consistent easy do-ing. The lambs will be better than my home bred maternals anyway, and are all destined for Killing so its an experiment and we shall see!

How stabilised???

Thought you only introduced the easy care in the last year or two.

Not being pedantic but it takes a while to stabilise a four way x to be true breeding. . . . . .

 

[CharcoalWally]

Or, What would you rather have? A cross bred tup that might leave any thing or a pure bred that leaves consistently good lambs, can work either way every time you buy a new tup it's a gamble. But Gregor Mendel got it right. basic genetics. nothing to do with selling rams.

Again , I am slightly mystified by this kind of attitude. A cross bred tup that might leave anything? Well , for a start , it won't leave "anything." It will be bred from two recognised parents , and it will throw a mix of the genetics of them. If the parents have been carefully selected on type and the breeder/purchaser have a clear blueprint in their mind on what they want to achieve , this is no different from selecting a pure tup. Many pure tups do not throw a level , uniform lamb crop , for the simple reason that his parents are not alike in type. I have seen many offspring of pure tups that left a lot to be desired for uniformity.

Anyway , tut tut @gatepost , what's the big obsession with "type" , it's 2017 Daddy O and the World's our Genetic All You Can Eat Buffet. The Planet's crawling with genetic goodies and it's there for us to mix and match to our heart's content in the pursuit of our individual goal. Like I said , there are no rules - not if you're a free thinker. Not happy with your Suffolk/Texel/Charollais/Whatever breed delete as appropriate ? Then change it. Change it yourself to your own plan. What's stopping any of us?

 

[gatepost]

i think perhaps you need to do some more research. .

no offence.

? Please explain, never to old to learn.

 

[gatepost]

Again , I am slightly mystified by this kind of attitude. A cross bred tup that might leave anything? Well , for a start , it won't leave "anything." It will be bred from two recognised parents , and it will throw a mix of the genetics of them. If the parents have been carefully selected on type and the breeder/purchaser have a clear blueprint in their mind on what they want to achieve , this is no different from selecting a pure tup. Many pure tups do not throw a level , uniform lamb crop , for the simple reason that his parents are not alike in type. I have seen many offspring of pure tups that left a lot to be desired for uniformity.

Anyway , tut tut @gatepost , what's the big obsession with "type" , it's 2017 Daddy O and the World's our Genetic All You Can Eat Buffet. The Planet's crawling with genetic goodies and it's there for us to mix and match to our heart's content in the pursuit of our individual goal. Like I said , there are no rules - not if you're a free thinker. Not happy with your Suffolk/Texel/Charollais/Whatever breed delete as appropriate ? Then change it. Change it yourself to your own plan. What's stopping any of us?

Nothing stopping any body doing anything and if it works all's well, as you say the world is full of genetic goodies, but you are only talking about selecting physical types, this one looks like that one so the offspring might be similar, I think we are actually further forward, with genomics, and soon you may be able to buy sheep with higher than average health traits, or production or what ever floats your boat, and to a degree the old style breed society may be a thing of the past, but you will need recognized phenotypes to get that information from, putting a few different types together is so last year in breeding terms, it is not I who is married to the past

 

[Ysgythan]

What's stopping any of us?

Nothing, but there are limiting factors.

There's a central paradox to all livestock breeding - inbred stock are most consistent, but with inbreeding comes genetic nasties and diminishing returns in terms of performance. Crossing gives hybrid vigour and a boost in performance and that is most distinct in an F1 cross of two pure bred (inbred) parents. It comes at a cost however. Further crosses don't give you the same boost and the results are inconsistent especially with constant cross on cross breeding.

For me there are four answers:

• Breed pure but not too close
• Two pure breeds criss crossed
• One pure parent and one crossed parent e.g. Texel on Mule or Aberfield on Lleyn.
• Breeding up - keeping second, third and fourth crosses of a pure breed from a crossbreed nucleus.

I don't believe cross on cross gives any benefits. I doubt any more than three breeds are needed in an animal's background. The modern fancy crossbreds can only be "stabilised" by being inbred. By the time that happens somebody will be crossing them with something else for the latest composite.

For those giving me stick as a ram breeder here's some back. If you dull buggers knew how to buy the right pure bred tup in the first place you wouldn't need to bugger about with all these mongrels.

 

[neilo]

the shearers were checking the teeth on all the Rams as they were doing them as they couldn't believe the size of the yearlings! They'd been at a famous "breeding programs" farm the day before and we're shocked at the size of our crossbreds.

To be fair, the farm the shearers had been on previously, might not have been in an area where the grass grew 6" in February.....
At the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest again, that's just the type of environmental difference that ebv's and BLUP are designed to exclude, otherwise we'd all just source Rams from a farm where nothing stops growing.

 

[gatepost]

To be fair, the farm the shearers had been on previously, might not have been in an area where the grass grew 6" in February.....
At the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest again, that's just the type of environmental difference that ebv's and BLUP are designed to exclude, otherwise we'd all just source Rams from a farm where nothing stops growing.

Buzz Buzz ouch

 

[CharcoalWally]

Nothing stopping any body doing anything and if it works all's well, as you say the world is full of genetic goodies, but you are only talking about selecting physical types, this one looks like that one so the offspring might be similar, I think we are actually further forward, with genomics, and soon you may be able to buy sheep with higher than average health traits, or production or what ever floats your boat, and to a degree the old style breed society may be a thing of the past, but you will need recognized phenotypes to get that information from, putting a few different types together is so last year in breeding terms, it is not I who is married to the past

So you're saying that we need to know how an animals genetic make up comes together with the knowledge of the environment that it has been reared in? It's health history? It's behavioural traits?

 

[glensman]

Nothing, but there are limiting factors.

There's a central paradox to all livestock breeding - inbred stock are most consistent, but with inbreeding comes genetic nasties and diminishing returns in terms of performance. Crossing gives hybrid vigour and a boost in performance and that is most distinct in an F1 cross of two pure bred (inbred) parents. It comes at a cost however. Further crosses don't give you the same boost and the results are inconsistent especially with constant cross on cross breeding.

For me there are four answers:

• Breed pure but not too close
• Two pure breeds criss crossed
• One pure parent and one crossed parent e.g. Texel on Mule or Aberfield on Lleyn.
• Breeding up - keeping second, third and fourth crosses of a pure breed from a crossbreed nucleus.

I don't believe cross on cross gives any benefits. I doubt any more than three breeds are needed in an animal's background. The modern fancy crossbreds can only be "stabilised" by being inbred. By the time that happens somebody will be crossing them with something else for the latest composite.

For those giving me stick as a ram breeder here's some back. If you dull buggers knew how to buy the right pure bred tup in the first place you wouldn't need to bugger about with all these mongrels.

with one caveat, all the characteristics that make a good pure bred tup are identical to a good hybrid tup.

 

[CharcoalWally]

For those giving me stick as a ram breeder here's some back. If you dull buggers knew how to buy the right pure bred tup in the first place you wouldn't need to bugger about with all these mongrels.

I have given you absolutely no stick for being a ram breeder.

I will however , since you've raised the point , turn your argument around. If tup breeders knew how to breed the right pure bred tups in the first place , then the "dull buggers" wouldn't be off experimenting for themselves.

It works both ways ........