Cumbria farmhouse heating options

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
And there was me thinking that anything over 350mm was pointless ?

Used to think that when I had 400mm over the ceiling with a cold loft. Was then told about the benefits of a warm loft by adding 200mm to the rafters. Thought it would not work as I had also heard this tale of it being pointless but it does and is now a warm dry loft used for storage.
 
Location
Suffolk
So @renewablejohn your loft has floor & ceiling insulation? Am I right? With a 35 degree pitch I've effectively no loft space mind & I hate stuff in lofts.
One of my dilemmas was the cold water tank position in one section of my project. Condensation being a major issue along with the mains cold pipe feed through to this. The tank now lives within its own compartment. The cold feed in & both feeds out are heavily insulated. On the unfinished part where I'm still on 1950's imperial plumbing the cold pipe continually drips condensation when there's a lot of water used. :confused:
To get around the British door design the main entrances (one built, one still on the drawing board) are both effectively air-locks (posh name for heavily insulated porch) This works well with very little heat loss. Bench seating, UFH, boot rack & coat hooks result in an area where folk can remove outside clothing in comfort & boots/coats will be dried in reasonable time ready for the next time outside. The dogs like the floor as well!
SS
 

phillipe

Member
Used to think that when I had 400mm over the ceiling with a cold loft. Was then told about the benefits of a warm loft by adding 200mm to the rafters. Thought it would not work as I had also heard this tale of it being pointless but it does and is now a warm dry loft used for storage.
I see ,all new roofs i do now if we insulate from ridge to wall plate,having no cold spots means no cold draghts,most of the recent ones i have done have had a very small area above the ceiling rafter so it doesnt matter ,plus you can then have your spot lights in the flat ceiling
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
I say this because when i went to the kingspan factory this very question was asked ,and the man at the factory said that 250mm properly fitted would be sufficient ,any more would be a waste ?

Pity the man in the factory does not go out to site and instruct the builder how to use his kingspan. In particular the need to seal all gaps around the edge of kingspan and not to drill holes though it without sealing.
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
So @renewablejohn your loft has floor & ceiling insulation? Am I right? With a 35 degree pitch I've effectively no loft space mind & I hate stuff in lofts.
One of my dilemmas was the cold water tank position in one section of my project. Condensation being a major issue along with the mains cold pipe feed through to this. The tank now lives within its own compartment. The cold feed in & both feeds out are heavily insulated. On the unfinished part where I'm still on 1950's imperial plumbing the cold pipe continually drips condensation when there's a lot of water used. :confused:
To get around the British door design the main entrances (one built, one still on the drawing board) are both effectively air-locks (posh name for heavily insulated porch) This works well with very little heat loss. Bench seating, UFH, boot rack & coat hooks result in an area where folk can remove outside clothing in comfort & boots/coats will be dried in reasonable time ready for the next time outside. The dogs like the floor as well!
SS

Effectively my loft has now become an unheated room, However the important fact is the existing insulation at the ceiling works better as the loft area is now warmer than without insulation in the rafters. I also detest stuff in lofts but can no longer store stuff outside in barns as it gets nicked. Did move all tanks out of the loft and now have pressurised hot and cold water system. We went for the outward opening Swedish doors as where on an exposed hilltop and the wind pushes against the seal on Swedish doors. Porches on our farmhouse are standard due to its exposed position.
 

thesilentone

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cumbria
Interesting topic. Going back to the original post and what is most efficient. I'm unsure if one exists, however a tool that can take each heat demand and thermal loss, and calculate the thermal requirements to suit water/radiator or under floor heating temps would be very useful. A mass balance.

If you are installing a log-burner, then this in conjunction with a heat store is a great solution. However, how do you exploit heat loss, re-circulation and transfer. Looking to all areas where heat can be scavenged (washing machine, dish washer, shower drain, bath drain etc) and run this through heat exchanger before dumping (or alternatively dumping if having a negative effect). it would be very interesting to see the end result of a mass balance from all these appliances and what we could effectively use.

You wouldn't use the water from the washing machine to wash the cutlery, but put through a heat exchanger before drain and hey-presto....
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
Efficiency means you pay for fuel, it’s is then transferred into heat. You’re losing 30% in transfer compared to modern gas boilers or heat pumps.

This lower temp thingy, I’m not sure where this comes from, boil a kettle to 40 degrees and stick your hand in it. That’s not low temperature. The heat is ample for warming homes and if you can hold a radiator on a heat pump then it’s undersized or the pump isn’t big enough to circulate.

You’ll be surprised at the heat emitted.

The lower temperature thingy comes from normal radiators are rubbish at convection at low temperatures so if your existing radiator is supplied with hot water from an oil boiler at 80C then you would need approx 3 times the amount of radiator for a GSHP at 30C.
 

akaPABLO01

Member
The lower temperature thingy comes from normal radiators are rubbish at convection at low temperatures so if your existing radiator is supplied with hot water from an oil boiler at 80C then you would need approx 3 times the amount of radiator for a GSHP at 30C.
Nah. I’ll post a comparison of radiator sizes tomorrow. Oil versus heat pump. I usually find that the majority of radiators we’ve replaced have been undersized by the oil boiler guy that must have stuck a wet finger in the air to size his.
 

akaPABLO01

Member
The lower temperature thingy comes from normal radiators are rubbish at convection at low temperatures so if your existing radiator is supplied with hot water from an oil boiler at 80C then you would need approx 3 times the amount of radiator for a GSHP at 30C.
Just been thinking Jonnyboy

Do you have an oil boiler and is heating thermostat on it set to 80°C?

In fact, if anyone still has an oil or lpg boiler, what is your heating temperature flow set at?
 

e3120

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Northumberland
Just been thinking Jonnyboy

Do you have an oil boiler and is heating thermostat on it set to 80°C?

In fact, if anyone still has an oil or lpg boiler, what is your heating temperature flow set at?
Dunno what the stat is set at, but was trying to measure temps today because of this thread. Reckon I had 60+ at rads, somewhere over 70 at exit thermal store. But thermometer was a bodge. To be fair, temps were probably a bit higher today as it's windy (it switches to immersion heating when the turbine is exporting and I set the stats well high on them to store max energy).
 

akaPABLO01

Member
Dunno what the stat is set at, but was trying to measure temps today because of this thread. Reckon I had 60+ at rads, somewhere over 70 at exit thermal store. But thermometer was a bodge. To be fair, temps were probably a bit higher today as it's windy (it switches to immersion heating when the turbine is exporting and I set the stats well high on them to store max energy).
So thermostat on the boiler is broken, is there only one or two?

And lastly, why on earth do you still have an oil/lpg when you have free electricity?
 

e3120

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Northumberland
So thermostat on the boiler is broken, is there only one or two?

And lastly, why on earth do you still have an oil/lpg when you have free electricity?
There's loads of stats to make everything work intelligently, thermal store, buffer tank, boiler, immersion x 5 - they all work.

Electric isn't free. It costs me 4.9p (my PPA rate) when the wind is blowing, so a bit cheaper than oil. Oil far cheaper when there's insufficient wind. A heatpump would extract more value from the cheaper part of electric.
 

akaPABLO01

Member
There's loads of stats to make everything work intelligently, thermal store, buffer tank, boiler, immersion x 5 - they all work.

Electric isn't free. It costs me 4.9p (my PPA rate) when the wind is blowing, so a bit cheaper than oil. Oil far cheaper when there's insufficient wind. A heatpump would extract more value from the cheaper part of electric.
So, using a heat pump on your ppa will cost 1.36p/kWth
What do you pay for oil /kWth?
 

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