'Current subsidies are funding in-efficient farming' - Micheal Gove (Chat away)

[Goweresque]

No they have enourmous scale and cheap labour WHICH WE DONT!!!!

What, you mean like the advantages the massive open cast coal mines in various parts of the world had, that could produce coal far cheaper than UK deep coal mining could?

Consider yourself lucky. Coal miners didn't get a cheque for £80k/yr for doing nothing, and when the mines closed they got a a few thousand in redundancy and a life on the dole. If your business goes bust because of cheap foreign competition you can sell your farm and still be a very wealthy man, even at land prices a fraction of todays.

Even now the State is promising you free money if you provide environmental goods, so its not like you're being thrown to the wolves, in the manner many industries and their workforces have over the last 50 years.

Just stop your whining for goodness sake. You sound like you're about 8 years old.

 

[ollie989898]

Can't believe your happy just to export all the jobs in UK ag, just so you can get a cheaper , probably chlorinated chicken.
Most farm subs ( I accept that they need capping and having a proviso that the actual farmer gets them, not shiek your money!, Or national trust), filters down through the agricultural or associated business world.

You are another one for putting words into other people's mouths?

Where in the cronk did I write we should just export all the jobs in UK agriculture?

The tax payer does not subsidise pork or poultry production, in fact, UK egg and broiler meat is fairly competitive in real terms, and they have had to work hard to market themselves to UK consumers. Good luck to anyone trying to flog chlorinated chicken in the UK. The pork world already had it's day of reckoning and it was savage as it was regulated very heavily and yet still has the spectre of cheap imports to contend with, but people are still selling and marketing pigs?

What exactly do you want? Please elaborate at length because I simply do not know and the majority of this thread is merely a cyclical moan. The dairy industry has had a serious education in the last 20 years with cyclical market movements, and very clear signals as to what over-supply will do to their end price: it destroys it. The current volatility looks here to stay so the obvious choice is to choose a buyer/system or product and so adapt to market requirements.

In the beef and sheep sector, which by the industry's own admission has a massive range in cost and performance differences, is the problem not essentially the same?

Do you not see that subsidisation is STILL contributing to oversupply because people are STILL using the money to offset otherwise loss making enterprises despite the fact the government has told them for years it is not a payment linked to production?

If people are saying that the only thing keeping them in the black each year is subsidy money, what in the heck are they doing spending their own hard earned money, tears and sweat by continuing to produce?

In my previous life I dealt with several land owners whom have long since essentially hung their boots up and found something else to do? Take the money, pocket what rent you can get and live life without the worry or stress?

On this very forum and others before it the complaints are generally the same, low returns, no new blood, increasing costs, etc etc. Are people not fed up of that status quo because that is the sum total of what is essentially being argued for here, a continuation of all of these above but with a sum of money from the tax payer which many contributors here are complaining are merely distorting the market for everyone?

 

[M-J-G]

Yep renewable energy for one, without subs all the things like solar panels/ digesters etc would be a total non starter, they bring less jobs into the area than a mixed livestock farm would.

Reality is that without subs the UK beef/sheep and arable sectors are fhinshed and would be replaced by imports, when arable goes then so would the UK pig/ poultry sectors and all the jobs off farm that rely on them!

Goves speech is a complete load of hogwash, make no bones about it, he only cares about his own career and is quite happy to sell UK AG down the river to further his own career!

Yes they are subsidised, I can't argue there. I'm not sure on the duration of their subsidised period.

I cannot comment on digesters or solar farms, but in many cases Wind Turbines bring more employment to an area than farming does the land does. 2000 acres of heather hill only employs a couple of people, but a hundred turbines employs a lot more, as well as the two shepherds who still farm the land.
This combined with millions of tonnes of aggregate, thousands of m3 of concrete and dozens of engineers and construction workers employed for years during construction, I don't think farming the land alone can compare to the employment that this type of renewable brings to areas.

I do appreciate that this is only one type of renewable, but it's one I have had some experience of, others may not work in the same way.

 

[fudge]

You are another one for putting words into other people's mouths?

Where in the cronk did I write we should just export all the jobs in UK agriculture?

The tax payer does not subsidise pork or poultry production, in fact, UK egg and broiler meat is fairly competitive in real terms, and they have had to work hard to market themselves to UK consumers. Good luck to anyone trying to flog chlorinated chicken in the UK. The pork world already had it's day of reckoning and it was savage as it was regulated very heavily and yet still has the spectre of cheap imports to contend with, but people are still selling and marketing pigs?

What exactly do you want? Please elaborate at length because I simply do not know and the majority of this thread is merely a cyclical moan. The dairy industry has had a serious education in the last 20 years with cyclical market movements, and very clear signals as to what over-supply will do to their end price: it destroys it. The current volatility looks here to stay so the obvious choice is to choose a buyer/system or product and so adapt to market requirements.

In the beef and sheep sector, which by the industry's own admission has a massive range in cost and performance differences, is the problem not essentially the same?

Do you not see that subsidisation is STILL contributing to oversupply because people are STILL using the money to offset otherwise loss making enterprises despite the fact the government has told them for years it is not a payment linked to production?

If people are saying that the only thing keeping them in the black each year is subsidy money, what in the heck are they doing spending their own hard earned money, tears and sweat by continuing to produce?

In my previous life I dealt with several land owners whom have long since essentially hung their boots up and found something else to do? Take the money, pocket what rent you can get and live life without the worry or stress?

On this very forum and others before it the complaints are generally the same, low returns, no new blood, increasing costs, etc etc. Are people not fed up of that status quo because that is the sum total of what is essentially being argued for here, a continuation of all of these above but with a sum of money from the tax payer which many contributors here are complaining are merely distorting the market for everyone?

Is uk chicken competitive? I heard it is cheaper in South America where land and labour are far cheaper.

 

[Henarar]

The tax payer does not subsidise pork or poultry production,

pig and poultry farmers can claim BPS just the same as any other bugger and plenty do

 

[ollie989898]

Is uk chicken competitive? I heard it is cheaper in South America where land and labour are far cheaper.

I have no idea. But we don't see Brazilian chicken on the shelves?

You guys must surely realise, that once the UK leaves the EU, the CAP money is gone. FInito. After that, any money the UK government decides to give you, will be subject to full blown parliamentary approval and political scrutiny. Not like the CAP where money doled out to the nation states has to be spent in agriculture/rural issues.

Gove has stated that money will only be given for environmental reasons. Firstly, this is going to be a lot easier to sell politically to the likes of Monbiot and Friends of the Earth, and second, it is an even stronger message that the government will not be paying people merely for owning land or producing food. How much clearer a message must they send?

As for the money spent on renewables, why do we think that has been done? Because it is a very cheap way of getting grid capacity into place as opposed to paying EDF to commission yet another series of nuclear reactors.

 

[ollie989898]

pig and poultry farmers can claim BPS just the same as any other bugger and plenty do

Even the units that have no land?

 

[fudge]

I have no idea. But we don't see Brazilian chicken on the shelves?

You guys must surely realise, that once the UK leaves the EU, the CAP money is gone. FInito. After that, any money the UK government decides to give you, will be subject to full blown parliamentary approval and political scrutiny. Not like the CAP where money doled out to the nation states has to be spent in agriculture/rural issues.

Gove has stated that money will only be given for environmental reasons. Firstly, this is going to be a lot easier to sell politically to the likes of Monbiot and Friends of the Earth, and second, it is an even stronger message that the government will not be paying people merely for owning land or producing food. How much clearer a message must they send?

As for the money spent on renewables, why do we think that has been done? Because it is a very cheap way of getting grid capacity into place as opposed to paying EDF to commission yet another series of nuclear reactors.

Currently Brazilian chicken is kept out by Eu barriers.

 

[Goweresque]

pig and poultry farmers can claim BPS just the same as any other bugger and plenty do

I am somewhat surprised by the figures for poultry farming environmental payments - how on earth do they get on average nearly 40k/yr in those? No other sector comes close. What could they possibly be being paid such amounts for?

But regardless of that, both pigs and poultry make healthy primary profits on their farming activity, which cannot be said for the other traditional forms of farming, dairy apart.

 

[Henarar]

Even the units that have no land?

the same as any other bugger

 

[Henarar]

View attachment 620910

I am somewhat surprised by the figures for poultry farming environmental payments - how on earth do they get on average nearly 40k/yr in those? No other sector comes close. What could they possibly be being paid such amounts for?

But regardless of that, both pigs and poultry make healthy primary profits on their farming activity, which cannot be said for the other traditional forms of farming, dairy apart.

And...............they can claim BPS the same as any other bugger

 

[fudge]

View attachment 620910

I am somewhat surprised by the figures for poultry farming environmental payments - how on earth do they get on average nearly 40k/yr in those? No other sector comes close. What could they possibly be being paid such amounts for?

But regardless of that, both pigs and poultry make healthy primary profits on their farming activity, which cannot be said for the other traditional forms of farming, dairy apart.

They get paid for solar panels on their sheds I believe.

 

[Henarar]

BPS has nothing to do with the type of farming you do

 

[Henarar]

If I sold all our cattle tomorrow and bought some pigs it would make no difference to the BPS payment
its a de-coupled payment

 

[Goweresque]

And...............they can claim BPS the same as any other bugger

Yes but you don't get many 10,000 acre chicken farms do you? You can see from the stats, the amount of BPS that chicken and pig farms claim is minuscule compared to their profits.

 

[Goweresque]

They get paid for solar panels on their sheds I believe.

I did wonder about renewables, biodigesters using the muck etc. Would such payments come under agri-environment payments?

 

[gone up the hill]

I have no idea. But we don't see Brazilian chicken on the shelves?

You guys must surely realise, that once the UK leaves the EU, the CAP money is gone. FInito. After that, any money the UK government decides to give you, will be subject to full blown parliamentary approval and political scrutiny. Not like the CAP where money doled out to the nation states has to be spent in agriculture/rural issues.

Gove has stated that money will only be given for environmental reasons. Firstly, this is going to be a lot easier to sell politically to the likes of Monbiot and Friends of the Earth, and second, it is an even stronger message that the government will not be paying people merely for owning land or producing food. How much clearer a message must they send?

As for the money spent on renewables, why do we think that has been done? Because it is a very cheap way of getting grid capacity into place as opposed to paying EDF to commission yet another series of nuclear reactors.

I think the UK Gov are going to tie themselves up in knots over their green agenda and the whole thing will fall apart long before the fhinsh line.

Very clear on here that a lot of people that were originally supporting less direct subs and more green payments are rapidly changing their minds!

Very little support among farming unions for the extreme way Gove is going and all these unions were originally supportive of him.

Becoming very clear that Gove hasn't a clue what he is talking about and if he isn't stopped then the UK faming industry will be destroyed alongside the rural businesses that rely on farmers business and the UK will end up total reliant on imported food which is very dangerous ground.

Doesn't matter how much we reduce production in the UK our farmgate prices wont rise as you suggest they will Ollie.

Only half the stock about than there was 20 years ago and prices in real terms are lower now than then!

 

[Henarar]

Yes but you don't get many 10,000 acre chicken farms do you? You can see from the stats, the amount of BPS that chicken and pig farms claim is minuscule compared to their profits.

yes
but they can claim it the same as any other bugger

 

[ollie989898]

BPS has nothing to do with the type of farming you do

Award for stating the obvious goes to....

 

[gone up the hill]

Yes but you don't get many 10,000 acre chicken farms do you? You can see from the stats, the amount of BPS that chicken and pig farms claim is minuscule compared to their profits.

They benefit in-directly by cheaper feedstuffs.