Debt

beardface

Member
Location
East Yorkshire
Be interesting to know how many do a cash flow budget for the year and review it through the year. Debt is only bad debt if its not repayable or stops you being able to pay other bills such as rent. In my opinion if there are those out there who are owner occupiers with little to no overdraft, who claim there in debt then, they need to review there business model.

As for the current social economic issue the main culprit is rediculously low interest rates leading to high borrowing by at risk individuals with little ability to actively save for the future, i.e. house deposit.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
I do a cashflow forecast every fortnight.

Just had sprayer MOT. £250.

Why is it £250 to basically test a pressure gauge and some jug flows, when a car MOT is £45 for much more comprehensive test involving brake testing, exhaust gas analysis etc?

Insurance for everything here on 200 acres getting on for £4000 p.a. and we have made one small claim in 30 years when the quad was stolen and it didn't cover replacement cost because they said it was old and knackered anyway.

Council tax and other living costs 10 times what they were 30 years ago yet commodity prices the same or half if you look at the beet.

Hardly a surprise folks are finding it hard.

Borrow to invest in agriculture? It would get laughed out of the dragons den. We think we are building an asset but all we are really doing is increasing scale, intensity or output to compensate for ever narrower margins. That's not really an investment with a return as such, it's just adding more capital to get the same return. Pumping in capital to stand still is what we have done for the last 30 years. We now have a huge amount of capital tied up for very little return. Just hope nobody realises that capital value ain't nothing like what people think it is, aka seriously overinflated land values etc. But we will probably wait till that crashes as well then we really will have been taken for everything.
 

cattleman123

Member
Location
devon
Are we talking about managed dept or those who cant afford to pay their bills
Theres 2 factors the ones who just keep borrowing likes theirs no end....and the ones who cant pay their bills,that in itself causes problems for the ones they cant pay,i was talking to a haulier at market the other day 3 lorries only a smallish business ...he said he was thinking of chucking in as all farmers do is moan about the price and then so many just cannot pay...he was telling me a story about a guy who bought 15 cows,he was told not to leave the mart with them till the auctioneers had the finance for them confirmed,it took 2 hrs to get it sorted....drove to his farm loads of new kit etc etc....he was saying its sad as this guys father gave him the farm....its all gonna go the way he is carrying on
 
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Be interesting to know how many do a cash flow budget for the year and review it through the year. Debt is only bad debt if its not repayable or stops you being able to pay other bills such as rent. In my opinion if there are those out there who are owner occupiers with little to no overdraft, who claim there in debt then, they need to review there business model.

As for the current social economic issue the main culprit is rediculously low interest rates leading to high borrowing by at risk individuals with little ability to actively save for the future, i.e. house deposit.

Its not just interest rates its also the rules on earnings to loan ratios which have changed over the years which has fuelled house prices. Houses aren't just an instrument to give people somewhere to live.

All said and done people generally have never been better off than they are now, so that is an achievement. I don't think I've ever been out of debt in 25 years. No new generations will be from student loans onwards.
 

cattleman123

Member
Location
devon
I do a cashflow forecast every fortnight.

Just had sprayer MOT. £250.

Why is it £250 to basically test a pressure gauge and some jug flows, when a car MOT is £45 for much more comprehensive test involving brake testing, exhaust gas analysis etc?

Insurance for everything here on 200 acres getting on for £4000 p.a. and we have made one small claim in 30 years when the quad was stolen and it didn't cover replacement cost because they said it was old and knackered anyway.

Council tax and other living costs 10 times what they were 30 years ago yet commodity prices the same or half if you look at the beet.

Hardly a surprise folks are finding it hard.

Borrow to invest in agriculture? It would get laughed out of the dragons den. We think we are building an asset but all we are really doing is increasing scale, intensity or output to compensate for ever narrower margins. That's not really an investment with a return as such, it's just adding more capital to get the same return. Pumping in capital to stand still is what we have done for the last 30 years. We now have a huge amount of capital tied up for very little return. Just hope nobody realises that capital value ain't nothing like what people think it is, aka seriously overinflated land values etc. But we will probably wait till that crashes as well then we really will have been taken for everything.
I think that sums up most if not all family farms..yes Dragons Den would laugh us out of the building....but of course it is a way of life and if you like it...it must have a value....ah that lies herein
 

DrDunc

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Dunsyre
In the last ten years or so.....

Cost of feed near doubled

Cost of fertiliser near doubled

Cost of seed more than doubled

Cost of fuel near doubled

Cost of machinery more than doubled

Price of lamb lower

Price of beef lower

Debt?

Us livestock hill farmers are buggered when the subsidy goes, that's for certain.

Our hobby just won't be affordable any longer :rolleyes::ROFLMAO:
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
In the last ten years or so.....

Cost of feed near doubled

Cost of fertiliser near doubled

Cost of seed more than doubled

Cost of fuel near doubled

Cost of machinery more than doubled

Price of lamb lower

Price of beef lower

Debt?

Us livestock hill farmers are buggered when the subsidy goes, that's for certain.

Our hobby just won't be affordable any longer :rolleyes::ROFLMAO:

Arable is no better. Massive expansion and amalgamation round here so that now 5 people are getting a living off 10,000 acres because return is so low. It's all inheritance tax driven any way. The agricultural production side of things is negligible and insignificant, done as a hobby underpinned by bps.
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
In the last ten years or so.....

Cost of feed near doubled

Cost of fertiliser near doubled

Cost of seed more than doubled

Cost of fuel near doubled

Cost of machinery more than doubled

Price of lamb lower

Price of beef lower

Debt?

Us livestock hill farmers are buggered when the subsidy goes, that's for certain.

Our hobby just won't be affordable any longer :rolleyes::ROFLMAO:
The big one a[part from the milk price and TB has been the weather, farmers tend to blame TB or is that their excuse for not being able to pay, I dont know enough about that one
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
And you @DrWazzock might be the last man standing ,so you might actually be the winner

Winner isn't the right word. Last surviving loser might be nearer the mark.

I'd rather see my neighbour's on their farms farming profitably getting a decent return for their work, their investment, the risks they take, then this slow decline I have seen for 30 years. Its sad to see families and neighbours selling up and moving on, with their holdings amalgamated into huge businesses.

When supermarkets slash prices, and our politicians clamour for cheap imports they should look at the economic and human cost to rural areas. Too late to turn back the clock in many cases but maybe we need somebody like Mr Trump who looks after our interests. Maybe that is a step too far, but we seem to have nobody fighting our corner at all. Nobody who is at all effective.
 

Treemover

Member
Location
Offaly
I was watching “the lakes” last night. Watching a farmer from the Lake District, sell his suckler calves. £35k I know he has other incomes, ie cull cows, subsidies; but there’s no way he’s putting 35k into his pocket or household.

I just felt, the poor guy. 12 months and after all is said and done how much per hour is he really earning??

As everyone is saying, as inputs continue to rise; and inputs stay stagnant or decline; it’s nearly impossible to keep far ahead of debt.
 

Treemover

Member
Location
Offaly
you only have to look over to Ireland and see how they get behind their farmers at any sign of a feed shortage

I disagree, it might seem like the Dept are assisting farmers; but they are really just injecting the bear minimum to keep the industry going. They get it back ten fold, via tax.
Agriculture will either go huge factory farms or reform. It won’t reform.
 

7610 super q

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Yeah well....who was it that coined the phrase.... 16th century prices, 21st century costs....:unsure:
Anyhoo......there's a surprising number of new tractors about.....:scratchhead:

And it's not just tractor prices that have lost the plot. A front end loader costs £10k. £10 fecking k !!!! , Tipping trailer £10k +...for a box on fecking wheels !!!

But are we not our own worst enemy ? A front end loader that has electrics, led lights, and has to be colour coded to match the tractor. Madness.
 

DaveGrohl

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cumbria
Slightly off topic but I went for a look round some car showrooms last weekend as I was tempted to change. Current car is on a hire purchase as I was fairly frugal through first year of university and decided it was best to put a bit of money into the car to begin with to stay away from the PCP type deals.
Looking round the showroom and all the sales people want to push me into cars that I know I can't afford but they think I can. To me, the important figure is the "total price payable" one as that's what the car is going to cost you one way or another. "Ahh don't worry about that they preach, you'll never pay it, we'll have you in a new car by then".
And these PCP deals are a big part of why the new car industry is currently scratching its head at why no one is buying new cars now. Day of reckoning has arrived for all those who signed up with the devil two or three years ago.
 

DaveGrohl

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cumbria
I do a cashflow forecast every fortnight.

Just had sprayer MOT. £250.

Why is it £250 to basically test a pressure gauge and some jug flows, when a car MOT is £45 for much more comprehensive test involving brake testing, exhaust gas analysis etc?

Insurance for everything here on 200 acres getting on for £4000 p.a. and we have made one small claim in 30 years when the quad was stolen and it didn't cover replacement cost because they said it was old and knackered anyway.

Council tax and other living costs 10 times what they were 30 years ago yet commodity prices the same or half if you look at the beet.

Hardly a surprise folks are finding it hard.

Borrow to invest in agriculture? It would get laughed out of the dragons den. We think we are building an asset but all we are really doing is increasing scale, intensity or output to compensate for ever narrower margins. That's not really an investment with a return as such, it's just adding more capital to get the same return. Pumping in capital to stand still is what we have done for the last 30 years. We now have a huge amount of capital tied up for very little return. Just hope nobody realises that capital value ain't nothing like what people think it is, aka seriously overinflated land values etc. But we will probably wait till that crashes as well then we really will have been taken for everything.
This. A hundred times.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 80 42.3%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 34.9%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 15.9%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,292
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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