Deja vu, again...

Danllan, it has absolutely nothing to do with being reasonable. Europe must give us a hard time over Brexit pour encourager les autres.

If we get a nice, happy, reasonable deal then the EU collapses inside a year.

We will be taken from behind without benefit of lubrication or the courtesy of a reach-around.
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
Reasonable is just a value judgement. What is reasonable to one is unreasonable to another for perfectly good reasons on both sides. I don't think the have your cake and eat brigade will square the brexit circle. The UK cannot leave and retain the benefits of membership, a transitional period makes no sense really, far better to take any hit now and move on. The Tories just don't want the associated political pain that's all.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Danllan, it has absolutely nothing to do with being reasonable. Europe must give us a hard time over Brexit pour encourager les autres.

If we get a nice, happy, reasonable deal then the EU collapses inside a year.

We will be taken from behind without benefit of lubrication or the courtesy of a reach-around.

I know this, you know this and even they (the EU) know this, but some people don't seem to know this, or admit it... :banghead:.

Reasonable is just a value judgement. What is reasonable to one is unreasonable to another for perfectly good reasons on both sides. I don't think the have your cake and eat brigade will square the brexit circle. The UK cannot leave and retain the benefits of membership, a transitional period makes no sense really, far better to take any hit now and move on. The Tories just don't want the associated political pain that's all.

That's just sixth form pseudo-philosophy, and therefore b*llocks; I've heard it loads of times in Court when people try and represent themselves, it was a bit sad the first time, later it is laughable.

In the real world, in such situations, we look for precedents and apply them to analogous situations. The UK is not asking for anything that the EU has not already conceded to others in trade deals. We want free trade, end of story. We don't want to have the EU meddling in our affairs, and we don't want to try and retain any say in the EU Parliament or Commission. Now, please tell me what 'benefit' of EU membership we are trying to retain or obtain that has not been shared with non-EU countries via trade deals?
 
I think I've said this before but;
1) Who effectively runs Europe?
Germany
2) What does Germany do?
Export
3) So what is good for Germany?
A weak Euro
4) So how is that maintained?
Get rid of strong economies (Britain) and scare the living excrement out of weak economies (Greece etc) who would be better off leaving from leaving.

How do you achieve that in one easy step? Shout 'squeal piggy squeal' as Britain leaves.
 
36e9f37a1ddab749b8838fe5d31b7742--east-side-far-side-cartoons.jpg
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
That's just sixth form pseudo-philosophy, and therefore b*llocks; I've heard it loads of times in Court when people try and represent themselves, it was a bit sad the first time, later it is laughable.

In the real world, in such situations, we look for precedents and apply them to analogous situations. The UK is not asking for anything that the EU has not already conceded to others in trade deals. We want free trade, end of story. We don't want to have the EU meddling in our affairs, and we don't want to try and retain any say in the EU Parliament or Commission. Now, please tell me what 'benefit' of EU membership we are trying to retain or obtain that has not been shared with non-EU countries via trade deals?[/QUOTE]
Well you said it yourself! Why should the EU "concede" anything to the U.K.? You are perfectly well aware that trade deals with the European Union take many years to negotiate. Why should the Europeans do a trade deal with the U.K. if they don't want to? We had a trade deal that has just been torn up. Why would the eu reward such an action with another deal. Despite the leave campaign's lies to the contrary this was always going to be the case.
Incidentally I would never make the error of representing myself. Lawyers can charge extortionate fees for good reason.
 

RobFZS

Member
Reasonable is just a value judgement. What is reasonable to one is unreasonable to another for perfectly good reasons on both sides. I don't think the have your cake and eat brigade will square the brexit circle. The UK cannot leave and retain the benefits of membership, a transitional period makes no sense really, far better to take any hit now and move on. The Tories just don't want the associated political pain that's all.
We have to have a transitional period to rebuild all the agencies we left the EU to control for the last 40 years, to build all these extra customs border posts for when we become a 3rd country and so on and so on
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Well you said it yourself! Why should the EU "concede" anything to the U.K.? You are perfectly well aware that trade deals with the European Union take many years to negotiate. Why should the Europeans do a trade deal with the U.K. if they don't want to? We had a trade deal that has just been torn up. Why would the eu reward such an action with another deal. Despite the leave campaign's lies to the contrary this was always going to be the case.
Incidentally I would never make the error of representing myself. Lawyers can charge extortionate fees for good reason.

Well, regardless of our disagreements, we can agree on that last bit; you'd be surprised at the number of clients I had who started out representing themselves and very soon realised what a bad idea it was. I have a fair idea how a gearbox works, but I sure as hell wouldn't work on my own.

However, I disagree with your 'always the case' view, it was a likely scenario but economic imperatives would indicate another course. I will admit to underestimating the EU's (meaning the organisation, not the peoples of EU) determination to see its project procede regardless of all else, be it democracy, economy or suffering. We may yet see some national politicians on the Continent put their people's interest in front of that of the EU project; but I think that is looking increasingly unlikely.

Your posts do seem to imply that the EU is indeed seeking to punish the UK to discourage other states from seeking independence; I find this odd for someone who seems a keen remainer. But then, perhaps you weren't taken in by the remain campaigns lies or Project Fear, but are just an EU dogmatist, is this the case?

Seeing as you missed my question the first time, I ask again, what 'benefit' of EU membership are we trying to retain or obtain that has not been shared with non-EU countries via trade deals?
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
I didn't miss your question. Your use of the word "shared" is a typical piece of obfuscation. You were correct first time in trade deals "concessions" are made by both sides. I think it unreasonable to expect any concessions from the EU given we have just torn up our existing arrangements. In the long run it will be the aim of the EU to out compete the U.K. all areas.
We have to have a transitional period to rebuild all the agencies we left the EU to control for the last 40 years, to build all these extra customs border posts for when we become a 3rd country and so on and so on
:ROFLMAO: I doubt the kippers will ever be ready to take any responsibility.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
I didn't miss your question. Your use of the word "shared" is a typical piece of obfuscation. You were correct first time in trade deals "concessions" are made by both sides. I think it unreasonable to expect any concessions from the EU given we have just torn up our existing arrangements. In the long run it will be the aim of the EU to out compete the U.K. all areas.

:ROFLMAO: I doubt the kippers will ever be ready to take any responsibility.
No obfuscation, 'shared' is a world in common legal parlance both in the domestic and international fields; why, even the EU uses it, so must think it a good thing. If you need a good example of 'obfuscation' i.e. obscuring the meaning of something, you'll find no better than the EU's own substitution of the word 'competence' for 'sovereignty'. No contradiction of my summing up of the EU's intentions and goals?
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
Your being unreasonable to expect the EU to "share" anything with the U.K. in the current circumstances.
Better to move forward unilaterally. Is that clear enough?
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Your being unreasonable to expect the EU to "share" anything with the U.K. in the current circumstances.
Better to move forward unilaterally. Is that clear enough?
Getting there, getting there... I think you have misunderstood me though, I don't expect the EU to be reasonable, but I did hope that would be the case. We are in complete agreement regarding unilateral action; for myself, I would see our walking away from the current (non)'negotiations'. Unless our Government roll over to the EU - unlikely as it is currently composed, but still possible - the 'no deal' option is looking both increasingly more realistic / inevitable and preferable.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
We are agreed then the government are a shambles.
yes those that govern or so called govern the EU are indeed a shambles
as to if our own lot are better or worse its up to them to do the job they were elected for as they stood for election after they knew we would leave the EU, so time will tell
 

jendan

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Northumberland
No, I did not say that; I think they are better than any possible current alternative. I do think that they should be presenting a far more unified and positive face. Are you British and living in the UK?
What do you make of Teresa Mays "speech"? Ken Clarke seemed to think it was OK,or better than he expected.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 76 43.7%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 62 35.6%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 27 15.5%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 3 1.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,284
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top