Deutz Agrolux 60 (SAME 1000 engine) problems

[Andy FitzGibbon]

Electric grid heater? or a fuel line going to the intake heater also?

Just an electric grid.

A few photos of the engine are attached (hard to get good shots because of the loader subframe).

I uploaded a couple videos:

Way too much air in the separator bowl. I just haven't figured out where it's coming from. The audio isn't great, but you can hear the RPMs dip when it starts to run rough around 0:32 in the second video.

Got home too late to do more testing, but will pick back up tomorrow. Thanks again for the replies. After coming in from the shop, I had a thought that maybe the air source is the fuel return line. If it's sending a bunch of aerated fuel back to the tank, due to a leaking injection pump or something similar, it may be getting drawn in by the pickup before the air is able to rise out of the fuel.

 

[Deerefarmer]

Where is the fuel drip coming from in the second video? Looks like stop solenoid .
Is it possible to draw air in around solenoid and get back into filter bowl?

Be interesting to coat the filter bowl head and rim with grease and then run engine.
Also some grease around primer button as @Wisconsonian suggested

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

I need to check all the connections again, but I think that drip is just fuel accumulated on the engine from bleeding and disconnecting lines. Not an active leak.

I did bypass the solenoid to make sure lift pump pressure wasn't getting back to the separator through cross-port leakage, but it seemed to make no difference.

I vacuum tested the separator bowl assembly and could find no leaks, but it's possible something only shows up under engine vibration.

Tomorrow I'll run a clear return line into a bucket and see A. if the return fuel is full of air and B. if the air in the separator clears when the return isn't going back to the tank.

 

[box]

Those glass bowls were prone to crack and let air in. Might be worth bypassing it temporarily (or permanently?) to see if it helps.

 

[DrWazzock]

The air leak into the system needs fixing sure enough.
But another thought. I could be wrong but don’t those injectors open up somehow thermally at very low starting temperatures then return to normal fuelling once you have warmed up? So maybe injector internal thermal control fault.
Our Lamborghini has similar engine and blows a lot of white smoke until the injectors change to normal running. I think it’s some kind of bimetal type mechanism within the injectors that does the work. I could be wrong but I vaguely remember somebody mentioning this to me once up a time. Was it you @Cowabunga ?

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

I've pulled a vacuum on the fuel bowl and have not been able to detect a leak, but I do intend to bypass it with a section of clear line and see if anything improves.

No thermal control within the injectors that I could see, just standard Bosch mechanical body, spring, needle and nozzle ect. Inless the spring itself is bimetallic. Engine never used to behave like this, though...

 

[Cowabunga]

The air leak into the system needs fixing sure enough.
But another thought. I could be wrong but don’t those injectors open up somehow thermally at very low starting temperatures then return to normal fuelling once you have warmed up? So maybe injector internal thermal control fault.
Our Lamborghini has similar engine and blows a lot of white smoke until the injectors change to normal running. I think it’s some kind of bimetal type mechanism within the injectors that does the work. I could be wrong but I vaguely remember somebody mentioning this to me once up a time. Was it you @Cowabunga ?

Not guilty Me’Lud!
When Same turned away from air cooling to liquid, to comply with the-then latest emission regulations around 2004 I think, they also changed something with the fuel system that caused them to emit massive amounts of white smoke on a cold start. It wasn’t just a small amount, it was massive almost unbelievable amounts that filled not just a shed but a whole yard. After about five minutes they were fine.
There is obviously a technical explanation as to what they did but I was never involved with any of that and we only had three or four Silver 130 models like that before their sales petered out due to the main franchise taking 100% priority. SDF soon lost the plot anyway and almost dumped the Same brand in the UK for a good long while.

 

[DrWazzock]

Not guilty Me’Lud!
When Same turned away from air cooling to liquid, to comply with the-then latest emission regulations around 2004 I think, they also changed something with the fuel system that caused them to emit massive amounts of white smoke on a cold start. It wasn’t just a small amount, it was massive almost unbelievable amounts that filled not just a shed but a whole yard. After about five minutes they were fine.
There is obviously a technical explanation as to what they did but I was never involved with any of that and we only had three or four Silver 130 models like that before their sales petered out due to the main franchise taking 100% priority. SDF soon lost the plot anyway and almost dumped the Same brand in the UK for a good long while.

Thanks.
I just had this feeling that the problems experienced by the poster were more to do with a cold start system that works as you described rather than being air in the fuel. I don’t know how that SAME cold start system works either.
But I have never seen an engine blow serious amounts of white smoke just because it was drawing air in the fuel.

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

I bypassed the separator bowl with a piece of clear line, straight from the tank to the shutoff solenoid, and that completely eliminated all the bubbling and cavitation I was seeing in the separator bowl. Unfortunately, it didn't change the way the engine runs.

The fuel in the return line does seem to have a lot of air in it... kind of looks like cherry soda... so I'm guessing maybe there's an air leak at one of the injectors or pumps. I routed the return line into a bucket temporarily, to see if the aerated fuel was being sucked back in by the fuel pickup, but that didn't change anything.

Running out of ideas, or at least ones I'm capable of implementing. Might drain the fuel and refill it with fresh, even though what's in there is fresh already.

 

[Deerefarmer]

Was fuel still going through the lift pump?

 

[Cowabunga]

Not sure if it is related to your issue but some of those thin rubber pipes on the injector return lines can suck air in without a visible fuel leak. Check for cracks and that they haven’t overly hardened with heat and age. I fitted a heat shield to the back of the turbo and made sure that cables and pipes had a gap between them and any likely severe heat source when it was new. However the top of the engine here should be somewhat cooler than mine due to yours being water cooled. The turbo and manifold may get just as hot when worked hard though.

 

[box]

It's funny how the problem started when it was low on fuel.

I may have missed it, but have you checked that the banjo bolts aren't blocked?

Have a squiz at this thread about the Silver 130 with a fuel issue, the last couple of pages cover a fault in the lift pump.

 

[box]

I don’t know how that SAME cold start system works either.

Neither, I'd like to know though. My Silver doesn't create any smoke at all on a cold start, as long as I use the cold start intake heater thingy.

If I don't preheat however.......well, I certainly get a few funny looks from the neighbours. The Rubin across the road is exactly the same, that makes me feel a bit better.

The workshop manual doesn't mention anything special (i.e. wax thermostats) about the injectors or the pumps, which leads me to beleive that the ECU must be adding fuel until the engine comes up to temperature? The colder it is, the longer it takes to stop smoking.

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

Fuel still going through lift pump, yes. From tank to solenoid to lift pump to main filter, back through solenoid and on to injection pumps. I will try to do more bypassing with clear hose, to see if bubbles appear anywhere in that path, but the banjo fittings make that more of a pain.

Only fittings I haven't messed with/cleaned so far are those on the injection pumps. I've been heeding the manual's warning that the bronze seals MUST BE RENEWED when the pump fittings are cracked open. At this point, I'll probably forget about that and just take it all apart.

With the tank being low, and it being a cold night, maybe water froze in a pump or injector and cracked something, or pushed out a bit of junk that was keeping something sealed. The saga continues...

Thanks for all the replies and ideas. Much appreciated.

 

[box]

Manuals say a lot of things, that's why I don't generally read them.

Follow the fuel line from the tank to the injector pumps and remove/check any banjo bolts along the way to make sure they're not blocked.

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

Manuals say a lot of things, that's why I don't generally read them.

Follow the fuel line from the tank to the injector pumps and remove/check any banjo bolts along the way to make sure they're not blocked.

Agreed. The bronze washer industry lobbied to have that put in, I suspect.

SAME also thoughtfully blasted the entire engine, post assembly, with a shade of gray akin to the Death Star. Makes locating leaks and small components a real joy.

 

[Oliveau]

I don’t think that air ingress is the problem. White smoke indicates unburnt fuel, so the engine is getting enough fuel. Try slacking off the fuel pipes at each injector in turn while it is running to see if you can identify a faulty injector or cylinder.

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

I don’t think that air ingress is the problem. White smoke indicates unburnt fuel, so the engine is getting enough fuel. Try slacking off the fuel pipes at each injector in turn while it is running to see if you can identify a faulty injector or cylinder.

I will try that. My thought is that air in the fuel could cause the injectors to fire late (because it compresses) which would be the same as retarding the timing, causing an incomplete burn. Willing to listen to any ideas at this point!

 

[Jim B]

When Same turned away from air cooling to liquid, to comply with the-then latest emission regulations around 2004 I think, they also changed something with the fuel system that caused them to emit massive amounts of white smoke on a cold start. It wasn’t just a small amount, it was massive almost unbelievable amounts that filled not just a shed but a whole yard. After about five minutes they were fine.

If you pressed the glow plug button on the dash first, waited for the light to go out and then started there would be no white smoke.

 

[Cowabunga]

If you pressed the glow plug button on the dash first, waited for the light to go out and then started there would be no white smoke.

I’m sure they sorted it long ago. The white smoke was quite unacceptable on the first ones with that generation of engine. I don’t recall there being an effective glow plug button on the ones I came across but I had very little to do with them as I was an MF specialist, specifically hired for the new MF franchise even though I ran and still run a Same tractor [and a NH and back then two Deere’s as well] on my own farm.
Just come in from driving my MF just now. Both MF and the Same Titan were hauling slurry tankers all Monday. Me on the MF and my brother on the Same.

My Same Titan air cooled burns clean of course, apart from the invisible NOx when working hard.