Deutz M420 troubles

[gone]

My M420 (16 months old) has been giving trouble since the day I bought it, for the first year I have been fobbed off by my dealer are even more so by the rep for SDF (who does a great line in "it's not our tractor it's your equipment that is at fault"). I was disappointed by my dealer's reaction but I suppose it's hard for them when the SDF rep is going down the blame everyone else route.
Anyway after a threat of legal action and a couple of major breakdowns that even this rep couldn't blame on anyone else my dealer is now trying to solve the issue.

We are stumped on it so far, but just wondering did anyone here come across anything similar?
During a long days work the tractor seems to become laboured and under pressure, reducing the hydraulic pressure on the relief valve of the pump has reduced the severity of the problem, and if worked long enough the main screen on the dash goes blank and ASM comes up where the time usually is, (if you turn on the ASM a 2nd ASM display comes up on the screen)
If you turn off the tractor and turn it back on again it will clear the error code and the tractor won't be under as much pressure, when worked it will recur.
I think the tractor is always putting itself under pressure to a lesser or greater extent, but all the usual tests come back fine.
Any ideas what to try next?
TIA

 

[you've been farmed]

Well, at that age and level of grief so far, I wouldn't be worrying what issue that tractor may have, but insisting Deutz take that tractor back and replace it with a new one. Claas did this twice for us at a similar age.

 

[DrDunc]

Well, at that age and level of grief so far, I wouldn't be worrying what issue that tractor may have, but insisting Deutz take that tractor back and replace it with a new one. Claas did this twice for us at a similar age.

SDF have an excellent product line up. They are very competitively priced, are very economical to run, and have one of the lowest costs of ownership of any brand (threads on here have determined this as fact). The sales volumes in Europe place them in the top threemanufacturers, but not in the UK!

Why is this? I don't know, but it's not difficult to draw your own conclusions when anyone reads threads like this. The dealer is trying to help the customer, but it appears the UK management aren't doing all they can to help the dealer!

Come on SDF sort it out!

If this tractor was bought on finance, then it's covered under the Supply of Goods Implied Terms Act 1973. It must be fit for purpose, and free of minor defects that prevent it from functioning.

Clearly this is not the situation!

@gone you need to contact the hire purchase company (de Lage Landen if it's sdf finance) and inform them you wish to reject the tractor and ask them to arrange a replacement for the faulty goods.

If SDF are serious about expanding the UK market share to reflect their popularity within the rest of Europe, then they're going to have to start looking after their dealers so that they in turn can look after their customers.







The engineer in me wants to fix it though.... Is it a standard or profi (electric spool) model?

 

[Timbo75]

Get some evidence together. Pattern of occurance, equipment used, does it begin to run hot, does it start to use more fuel, what consumption does the lcd read out show with and without the error code?? If something is sapping power then it's going to use more juice / feel sluggish etc.

Engineer's report, trading standards? About that point you might find stuff starts happening!

The dash fault sounds like a different fault, but still heat related? At the point of it going blank, a fault code read / data stream via the diagnostic tool should immediately help pinpoint...

 

[Cropwell]

My M620 had a similar problem when using a JD 624 sprayer which requires a spool to be set in constant flow, after an hour or so you could hear the hydraulics labouring.To start with putting the valve in neutral and turning the engine off for a few minutes would sort it out but over a period of weeks it got progressively worse. This problem only happened with the sprayer or if the spool was engaged with nothing coupled. After checking everything out and finding no problems the dealer fitted a new hydraulic pump under warranty which was all fine and good to start with but after a few months the same thing happened.
I had a word with deutz at a show, sorry can't remember the chaps name but he suggested making up a pipe to run from the power beyond sensing connection into the pressurless return which my dealer duly did and this sorted things out.
I think the problem is down to the deutz trying to push too much oil through the the sprayer system that is too restricted causing a sort of feed back loop in the pump, relieving pressure from the power beyond seems to stop it happening.
I only had this problem with the sprayer but I have no other machines that require the use of constant flow.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

Irrespective of the colour of tractor, an owner shouldn't have to put up with this whilst in warranty. That is after all why the warranty exists.

As noted above I would be be directing my resources into obtaining a (new) replacement machine, as you reported the problem quite early on. If it's not on finance then get the lawyers onto the case, to get this the proper attention, rather than yet another fob off and more frustration. Neither dealer or SDF want to go to court as it WILL be far cheaper for them to simply sort you a new machine.

You just need to get a decent lawyer to lay out all the facts and make super clear to them that that is the only acceptable remedy. I would say this is time, energy and money better spent than trying to diagnose a non trivial fault yourself on a factory warrantied machine.

 

[Chae1]

They re is a chap on BFF having same problems. Maybe contact him.

 

[texelburger]

We have a 2 1/2 year old Deutz M420 which has been near perfect for us ,one planet gear on front wheel hub replaced,under warranty without a quibble. I am sorry to hear of your problems.Come on SDF sort this out NOW.All us SDF owners dont like to hear stories like this.

 

[gone]

My M620 had a similar problem when using a JD 624 sprayer which requires a spool to be set in constant flow, after an hour or so you could hear the hydraulics labouring.To start with putting the valve in neutral and turning the engine off for a few minutes would sort it out but over a period of weeks it got progressively worse. This problem only happened with the sprayer or if the spool was engaged with nothing coupled. After checking everything out and finding no problems the dealer fitted a new hydraulic pump under warranty which was all fine and good to start with but after a few months the same thing happened.
I had a word with deutz at a show, sorry can't remember the chaps name but he suggested making up a pipe to run from the power beyond sensing connection into the pressurless return which my dealer duly did and this sorted things out.
I think the problem is down to the deutz trying to push too much oil through the the sprayer system that is too restricted causing a sort of feed back loop in the pump, relieving pressure from the power beyond seems to stop it happening.
I only had this problem with the sprayer but I have no other machines that require the use of constant flow.

The problems are worst while on my sprayer, (A Knight) I have already changed it to power beyond, but this only reduced the symptoms as did the reduction in pump pressure. All of tis is just trying to treat the symptoms and not finding or solving the problem. The problem was even apparent when working the front linkage and the sprayer would have stalled the tractor 20 times an hour. We have now reduced the symptoms to a minimum, but still even on a pile driver the tractor is put under pressure when working it

 

[you've been farmed]

Irrespective of the colour of tractor, an owner shouldn't have to put up with this whilst in warranty. That is after all why the warranty exists.

As noted above I would be be directing my resources into obtaining a (new) replacement machine, as you reported the problem quite early on. If it's not on finance then get the lawyers onto the case, to get this the proper attention, rather than yet another fob off and more frustration. Neither dealer or SDF want to go to court as it WILL be far cheaper for them to simply sort you a new machine.

You just need to get a decent lawyer to lay out all the facts and make super clear to them that that is the only acceptable remedy. I would say this is time, energy and money better spent than trying to diagnose a non trivial fault yourself on a factory warrantied machine.

Agree with the above, but perhaps before setting lawyers loose you could try contacting the Deutz 'service and technical manager', or some such title which goes above the heads of your dealer and area rep.
Your dealers workshop manager will know who this is, or indeed @Dr Dunc may well know!
Also, it can be frustrating problems like this but remain polite at all times, but firm when needs be!
You want a replacement new tractor at no further cost to youreslf, you have totally lost confidence in the existing tractor, and that is Deutz's problem to fix as the current machine is not fit for purpose!

 

[E_B]

Wow, what a bad advert for Deutz. Just when I was starting to get excited about their new 9 series.

 

[texelburger]

Wow, what a bad advert for Deutz. Just when I was starting to get excited about their new 9 series.

In all fairness our 4 Deutz tractors have been faultless with the m420 planet gear the only exception.All marques have the odd "friday afternoon" tractor,and Deutz probably have less of them than the others.Having said that they need to sort this straight away.

 

[Victor]

Must be the same team in charge from when I had grief. JD and the others must be well chuffed

 

[Walterp]

SDF have ..... one of the lowest costs of ownership of any brand (threads on here have determined this as fact).

As fact?

I read through those threads and that's not the conclusion I drew.

Two further points, neither very helpful I'm afraid:

1. It's probably too late to reject the tractor, bearing in mind the time and (I suspect) efforts made to rectify the faults;

2. Trying to get tough with the finance outfit is probably just a fast exit to a bad Second Act.

Me? I'd suggest (from experience) that all problems MUST be resolved within the first 12 months. That is the best, and perhaps the only, opportunity to make sure everything is functioning as it should. And - a matter not often considered - think very carefully before accepting efforts to repair a warranty fault: it could prevent you repudiating the unit later on.

And the suggestion about instructing Solicitors is a fairly risky one - yes, it might work, but I wouldn't fancy going down that route after 16 months.

Pressure on the dealer and SDF is probably the best suggestion; but if SDF's reaction is as perfunctory as it seems, they deserve my disdain. It's almost as bad as Kubota supposing a lawn-mower is an incentive to buy one of their 135hp tractors. (But, maybe, one of their 135hp tractors might be an incentive to buy one of their lawn mowers...)

 

[The_Swede]

Lets hope this online 'reminder' gets the ball rolling. Not great publicity as read...

As an aside isn't a full 24 month warranty standard fair on any SDF machine over 130hp?

 

[DrDunc]

As fact?

I read through those threads and that's not the conclusion I drew.

Two further points, neither very helpful I'm afraid:

1. It's probably too late to reject the tractor, bearing in mind the time and (I suspect) efforts made to rectify the faults;

2. Trying to get tough with the finance outfit is probably just a fast exit to a bad Second Act.

Me? I'd suggest (from experience) that all problems MUST be resolved within the first 12 months. That is the best, and perhaps the only, opportunity to make sure everything is functioning as it should. And - a matter not often considered - think very carefully before accepting efforts to repair a warranty fault: it could prevent you repudiating the unit later on.

And the suggestion about instructing Solicitors is a fairly risky one - yes, it might work, but I wouldn't fancy going down that route after 16 months.

Pressure on the dealer and SDF is probably the best suggestion; but if SDF's reaction is as perfunctory as it seems, they deserve my disdain. It's almost as bad as Kubota supposing a lawn-mower is an incentive to buy one of their 135hp tractors. (But, maybe, one of their 135hp tractors might be an incentive to buy one of their lawn mowers...)

Two year manufacturer's warranty means it's not too late. Even if it was only 12 month, the fault was reported to the dealer in time.

SDF need to get their finger out and help the dealer solve the problem, be it due to the implement the tractor is pulling, or a manufacturing fault. If they don't have the technical expertise in the UK, then they need to ask the engineers in Germany.


With respect to the cost of ownership, take the purchase price, add servicing and repair costs, subract the resale price, and divide the balance by the number of engine hours. Do you have another way of calculating this?

 

[Walterp]

Two year manufacturer's warranty means it's not too late. Even if it was only 12 month, the fault was reported to the dealer in time.

SDF need to get their finger out and help the dealer solve the problem, be it due to the implement the tractor is pulling, or a manufacturing fault. If they don't have the technical expertise in the UK, then they need to ask the engineers in Germany.


With respect to the cost of ownership, take the purchase price, add servicing and repair costs, subract the resale price, and divide the balance by the number of engine hours. Do you have another way of calculating this?

I'd have to disagree on that - rejection of the unit is not the same as a warranty claim (it is, in fact, the obverse in some senses). It's not enough to be able to say 'it's crap, I reject it' - if enough time has elapsed, or the buyer has accepted efforts at repair, he may be debarred from repudiation.

We tend to use years rather than hours ('cos we try to change when the finance is up, running at over 1,000 hours a year) and whenever we've looked as buying a Deutz the new price is too near MF/JD whilst its resale value lags behind, so that we'd get caned on depreciation. We like and trust the dealer, they have a yard and mechanic nearby, too, but the deprec. calcs. never looked attractive.

The best buy's gotta be a John Deere, 'cos the depreciation is so good. We were offered a really good deal on a new loader tractor the other day, actually cheaper than an MF of the same power (but not spec) and it was difficult turning it down when, on financials and on paper it was by far the best buy. (But I felt better about our decision when our ploughing contractor's head gasket etc subsequently failed on a 2012 model JD, landing him with an obscene repair invoice).

 

[DrDunc]

I'd have to disagree on that - rejection of the unit is not the same as a warranty claim (it is, in fact, the obverse in some senses). It's not enough to be able to say 'it's crap, I reject it' - if enough time has elapsed, or the buyer has accepted efforts at repair, he may be debarred from repudiation.

We tend to use years rather than hours ('cos we try to change when the finance is up, running at over 1,000 hours a year) and whenever we've looked as buying a Deutz the new price is too near MF/JD whilst its resale value lags behind, so that we'd get caned on depreciation. We like and trust the dealer, they have a yard and mechanic nearby, too, but the deprec. calcs. never looked attractive.

The best buy's gotta be a John Deere, 'cos the depreciation is so good. We were offered a really good deal on a new loader tractor the other day, actually cheaper than an MF of the same power (but not spec) and it was difficult turning it down when, on financials and on paper it was by far the best buy. (But I felt better when our ploughing contractor's head gasket etc subsequently failed on a 2012 model, landing him with an obscene repair invoice).

Repair bills are part of the cost of ownership however you calculate it!!!

The buyer doesn't seem to have accepted attempts at repair, he's still trying the get the dealer to fix it. If it can't be sorted to an acceptable standard, he is well within his rights to ask for a buy back. As a car development engineer I had to assess a few cars and land drovers for manufacturing faults when the dealer couldn't fix faults. Tractors are covered by exactly the same law as I'm sure you're fully aware.

As to deutz depreciation, there is a very strong export demand for agrotrons which keeps the trade-in value high (and is perhaps not helping sdf UK new sales market share). Do you have figures for the little agrofarms? There are a lot in your area so I presume some will have been traded in?

 

[Kevtherev]

@feilding will surely know

 

[feilding]

All tractor makers can make a problem tractor, some more than others, but I think its not fair for the dealer to change the tractor it should be the maker or importer. I have returned two tractors years ago one at 3 yrs old and the other at 3 months old, both went back to the maker ( MF ) and not the dealer.

The way I sorted it out was to keep talking and not losing my temper, just stating the facts.

since running Deutz I have never had any major problems so don't know how SDF sort major problems, but the dealings I have had with SDF everthing has been sorted easily.(SDF putting M+ software on a 3 yr old tractor).
Of all the tractors I've owned/driven over the yrs my Agrotrons have been the most reliable.