Direct Drilling - Clay soils

[Banana Bar]

I’ve been drilling when no one else could Into covers. I think many have caught up now but far from ideal conditions and probably caused damage that will need sorting next year, just like they had to after last year. The treadmill continues.

Definitely guilty of that here, abused fields last year have had a second go in some cases this year.

 

[Banana Bar]

I’m going to kill mine off fairly soon

Did ours yesterday

 

[ajd132]

Definitely guilty of that here, abused fields last year have had a second go in some cases this year.

Not ideal but atleast you recognise it, many don’t!

 

[ajd132]

Definitely guilty of that here, abused fields last year have had a second go in some cases this year.

I do now know why dad has always refused to grow beet or maize even when the money was really good. He said it always comes back to bite you eventually which I think many are now realising. His words are more like ‘it f**ks your soil up’!

 

[cows r us]

On heavy land drill the spring crops later if there is a black grass seed bank

2 or 3 years spring crops if bad black grass levels


then if black grass in the break crops is very low plant in September unless the soil is so dry 2011 or 2018
then wait an extra week
use Avadex pays for wild oat control plus’s the ffct pdm stack
use Glyphosate carefully on the green up to crop emergence
no need to use glyphosate any earlier in the autumn

beans take a long time to emerge
one year 2014 I could have sprayed the bg off that emerged after drilling and was green all over drilled late March
april planted beans often yield higher than March planted on heavy land

What do you recon is the best approach to herbicides in no till when black grass is present. Avadex straight after drilling and then pre ems on straight away or wait and put a post em on? We have always been delayed drillers but are looking to bring the drill date forward now. Previously we haven't used Avadex and just put on a pre em stack after drilling in mid October.

 

[Two Tone]

What do you recon is the best approach to herbicides in no till when black grass is present. Avadex straight after drilling and then pre ems on straight away or wait and put a post em on? We have always been delayed drillers but are looking to bring the drill date forward now. Previously we haven't used Avadex and just put on a pre em stack after drilling in mid October.

I think you are thinking along the right lines.
I also think that the reason this thread was started is because we have had 2 difficult Autumns in a row due to the amount of rain we have had, which hasn’t helped some zero-tilled crops on clay soils.

When I ploughed and Combi’d, I would worry that I might not be able to travel in mid October with the sprayer.
But with zero-TIL, the soils is so undisturbed that it will usually travel really well.

Because we are trying not to disturb Blackgrass which will wake it up and encourage it to grow, we can afford to drill much earlier.

 

[teslacoils]

What do you recon is the best approach to herbicides in no till when black grass is present. Avadex straight after drilling and then pre ems on straight away or wait and put a post em on? We have always been delayed drillers but are looking to bring the drill date forward now. Previously we haven't used Avadex and just put on a pre em stack after drilling in mid October.

Although not direct drilling, I like to try and rotate my herbicides through the rotation. Typically spring cereals get no grass weed chem. Linseed gets the graminicide.

Then I try different stacks for the wheat. My aim is to drill late enough that the high dose of flufenacet doesn't degrade too quickly. This year I went avadex and 0.6 liberator for wheat after spring oats. The flufenacet is the mainstay here whereas the avadex is new to this ground. The aim is always to be able to rogue any weeds that get through. And for there to be some profit. A rough rule of thumb is the cost of 1.2lt of liberator for the full program. Why? Because if anything gets through that then I'm a stupid bugger, and could have grown winter barley , oats, or a spring cereal for the same profit.

There are lots of stack options depending on your view and a lot of options you can generate by dropping some actives and really pushing others. So when some say 240g flufenacet is the full rate, I'd say is it really? Does 2lt of stomp add *anything* to a mix, or would an extra 0.3 of pincer take the flufenacet up to a serious level?

I'm sceptical about say what 3lt of defy brings over an early postem spray of pincer / straight flufenacet. Suppose it depends on the grass weed spectrum.

But resistance worries would lead me to only be using one heap of active in the rotation which for me would be once in six years.

The goals:

Roguable grass weed level.
Avoidance of spring contact sprays.
Profit - chem budget must not compromise profit.
Not reusing the same active in the rotation, although this wouldn't include flufenacet if I were growing more winter cereals.

 

[HarryB97]

yes

View attachment 920512

they didn’t yield well however but due to drought that had already started when this picture was taken not establishment

notice no tramlines? orher than glyphosate post drilling this crop received no other inputs

At what point did you decide to massivley reduce the amont of inputs you apply to all your crops or was it due to missing some applications due to poor conditions etc and noticing no negative affects?

 

[Clive]

At what point did you decide to massivley reduce the amont of inputs you apply to all your crops or was it due to missing some applications due to poor conditions etc and noticing no negative affects?

I don't think there was ever a moment we decided to cut stuff, just more bit by bit we tried a few fields without something and when we saw no negative we did more that way

 

[richheady]

Have any of you applied gypsum to your heavy clay fields? and if so, did you see a benefit, was it worth the money/wheeling? It sounds great in theory, and an interesting read in the latest Direct Driller magazine, but will I notice an improvement in the soil structure for the short or long term? Thanks

 

[teslacoils]

Have any of you applied gypsum to your heavy clay fields? and if so, did you see a benefit, was it worth the money/wheeling? It sounds great in theory, and an interesting read in the latest Direct Driller magazine, but will I notice an improvement in the soil structure for the short or long term? Thanks

Yes, we used to apply it. Not so much now. A better bet would be to use the money on drainage, and instigate some fym deal. Won't notice in the short term.

 

[l'ordinary bonville]

We have applied equivalent to 2t/ha/year but applying 5t/ha at a time across most of the farm for about 8 years now. I’m not seeing much effects yet apart from the costs involved.
this is our first full year of DD and we are heavy land.
Also trying some liquid gypsum for the first time this autumn.
I don’t think it will be the silver bullet we’re looking for though

 

[yellow belly]

What do you recon is the best approach to herbicides in no till when black grass is present. Avadex straight after drilling and then pre ems on straight away or wait and put a post em on? We have always been delayed drillers but are looking to bring the drill date forward now. Previously we haven't used Avadex and just put on a pre em stack after drilling in mid October.

my standard autumn herbicide for wheat is avadex granules and liberater pdm

i delay the liberater pdm if heavy forecast and soil is not dry

on my soils here delaying drilling till mid october only works if the autumn is very dry after a dry august 2011 or 2018
one wet weekend from a tropical depression is all we need to stop us drilling and resulting in poor establishment
40 years ago 70s and 80s this was twice a decade now it is 5 or 6 or more per decade

 

[Michael S]

Drilling early as you dare I think is the answer. On one farm in autumn 2019 I pressed on with the Simtech drilling wheat on the 20th and 30th October and resulting crop looked weak all year and yields were very poor. This year I drilled 22 hours non stop on September 28th into 29th and the crop looks well despite having a full stack of Avadex/ Crystal/ DFF. I have drilled three fields at home driilled 17th to 19th October and there are some poor patches and poor headlands in them despite not having Avadex and the Crystal mixes going on post emergence.

Having said all that in the first field of wheat I drilled this year (ex OSR) on 23rd September I felt it was borderline too dry before it started raining to the point I stopped for the day. I returned on the 24th after 5mm rain with another 2mm falling during the day. The crop drilled that day has looked much more even right through to today. What I am really saying is you can't beat going when conditions are right and compared to tillage the windows are much narrower in my experience. The crops we power harrow drilled on some tillage land on the 19th October are more even than the no-till crops for example.

 

[Warnesworth]

Have any of you applied gypsum to your heavy clay fields? and if so, did you see a benefit, was it worth the money/wheeling? It sounds great in theory, and an interesting read in the latest Direct Driller magazine, but will I notice an improvement in the soil structure for the short or long term? Thanks

Gypsum only works in very particular circumstances and you need to know your soil calcium and magnesium saturation before it’s applied. Otherwise you are just throwing money around without a sensible plan.

 

[mo!]

Gypsum only works in very particular circumstances and you need to know your soil calcium and magnesium saturation before it’s applied. Otherwise you are just throwing money around without a sensible plan.

What are the circumstances?

 

[ajd132]

Gypsum only works in very particular circumstances and you need to know your soil calcium and magnesium saturation before it’s applied. Otherwise you are just throwing money around without a sensible plan.

Agrovista will now sell you liquid gypsum

 

[l'ordinary bonville]

What are the circumstances?

Extremely high mag clay soils with indices of 6+ that are tough and tight.
Still not convinced we will solve the problem with gypsum though.

 

[ajd132]

Drilling early as you dare I think is the answer. On one farm in autumn 2019 I pressed on with the Simtech drilling wheat on the 20th and 30th October and resulting crop looked weak all year and yields were very poor. This year I drilled 22 hours non stop on September 28th into 29th and the crop looks well despite having a full stack of Avadex/ Crystal/ DFF. I have drilled three fields at home driilled 17th to 19th October and there are some poor patches and poor headlands in them despite not having Avadex and the Crystal mixes going on post emergence.

Having said all that in the first field of wheat I drilled this year (ex OSR) on 23rd September I felt it was borderline too dry before it started raining to the point I stopped for the day. I returned on the 24th after 5mm rain with another 2mm falling during the day. The crop drilled that day has looked much more even right through to today. What I am really saying is you can't beat going when conditions are right and compared to tillage the windows are much narrower in my experience. The crops we power harrow drilled on some tillage land on the 19th October are more even than the no-till crops for example.

I am thinking now our blackgrass is down to much lower levels we should start rouging it. I think this is pretty pointless if you are going to go through with a cultivator and bring up old seeds but I reckon in no till it could be really effective.
If it allows me to drill in September and use less herbicide then £40-50/ha (maximum) on a good rouging team should be money well spent. Obviously that would not be ever acre every year and would hopefully also mean after a couple years you would barely need them, especially as the soils change and are no longer as favourable to BG?

 

[teslacoils]

It's not pointless if you're going to go through with a cultivator. Tbh I'd not consider it roguable unless you can do an acre an hour (first pass) and two acres an hour (second pass). But then what do I know in my max-till based madness.