Dispatches - Red Tractor

[DaveGrohl]

You make some valid points but will you apply bagged nitrogen over the autumn and winter under the same principle?

By the way, shouldn't this be discussed on the autumn muck thread?

It prob should be discussed over there, but it seems to have cropped up from a number of posters on this thread, or haven't you noticed?

I've no idea what your first question is trying to get at? The point I was making was that grass grows in the autumn and winter in spite of the existence of a thing called a calendar. What tf is "crop need"? The rules make no sense when you're allowed to apply in Feb say but not in Sept. Don't know about you but ground and growing conditions are waaaaaay better for application of manures etc in a balmy Sept that a p1ss wet cold Feb/March/April. Or are you campaigning for it all to be banned leaving a fortnight in late July?

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

It prob should be discussed over there, but it seems to have cropped up from a number of posters on this thread, or haven't you noticed?

I've no idea what your first question is trying to get at? The point I was making was that grass grows in the autumn and winter in spite of the existence of a thing called a calendar. What tf is "crop need"? The rules make no sense when you're allowed to apply in Feb say but not in Sept. Don't know about you but ground and growing conditions are waaaaaay better for application of manures etc in a balmy Sept that a p1ss wet cold Feb/March/April. Or are you campaigning for it all to be banned leaving a fortnight in late July?

Not campaigning for anything, I'm only a humble village farmer. I don't believe this legislation was "dreamt up just to p1ss farmers off or put us out of business. More likely it was a reaction to inappropriate practices leading to pollution. I realise that most applications have historically gone onto stubble or aftermath and there wasn't much notice of the new rules. There are other options though.

Yes the ground conditions in September are often good, but it's followed by 6 months of usually colder and wetter weather when the ground is cold, roots dormant and soil wet.

My question, will you apply granular N in the autumn or winter is just that, a question.

Having it explained to me helped me understand why spring and summer applications are better for me and better for the environment. I did have to change things round a bit, but it makes me feel better that less of it is being wasted.

 

[betweenthelines]

To me the programme highlighted merely the main conundrum of farming and feeding the nation.

If you want cheap food-a frozen chicken from Tesco costs less than a Costa Coffee-then it isn't going to be produced to the highest possible welfare standards. The family at the end literally laughed out loud when asked if they would buy organic chicken at £16+ per bird.

As for the "attack" on RT, that just highlighted what a useless tool it is-doesn't mean what the public think it does, but that doesn't matter as no one looks for it when they shop anyway.

I think the Head of the EA was well out of order speaking "as a private individual" but then the programme makers and his Employers shouldn't have allowed that to happen. But our Government has a real problem with pollution as they appear quite happy to let Water Companies pollute rivers at will, so they can't exactly vilify farming over water pollution.
Anyway, I'm sure that a few years ago small farms caused more pollution than the equivalent numbers of livestock do nowadays on larger units Just think of outwintered cattle, cows walked along roads to grazing, open middens with run off going god knows where etc. A big shed full of animals is an easy target for any type of complaint

 

[MrNoo]

The reason H&S was left in was to try and reduce the 35-50 people that are victim to fatal accidents on farms every year. That figure does not include those that have life changing injuries or more minor accidents and 'near misses'.
If anybody thinks it wont happen to them - think again. I have lost my father-in-law to an accident with a bull, my daughters boyfriend to a RTA whilst driving a badly maintained grain trailer, a daughter to suicide, and a neighbour is in a wheelchair after falling through a roof.

What way does RT limit or lessen these accidents? It doesnt, RT is more likely to drive someone to suicide than many other things on the farm. It's all fine for you in your Ivory Towers but the truth be told that RT is nothing but stress and nonsense, it would be I would say one of my most stressful periods of the farming year.
I left this year and glad I did but it has been shown that I cannot continue as I am, I will be forced to re-join your Cartel in order to be able to get my grain to market. This is a situation you the NFU support and is scandalous, our own so say farming Union shafting producers, WHY?????
Mutual renewal shortly but for the first time in 30 odd years I will not be renewing my insurance with them because I am so fecked off with the whole NFU narrative and support for Dead Tractor, some other company can have my £12k/year insurance money.
What will it actually take for the NFU to ACTUALLY SUPPORT Uk Agg????

 

[DaveGrohl]

Not campaigning for anything, I'm only a humble village farmer. I don't believe this legislation was "dreamt up just to p1ss farmers off or put us out of business. More likely it was a reaction to inappropriate practices leading to pollution. I realise that most applications have historically gone onto stubble or aftermath and there wasn't much notice of the new rules. There are other options though.

Yes the ground conditions in September are often good, but it's followed by 6 months of usually colder and wetter weather when the ground is cold, roots dormant and soil wet.

My question, will you apply granular N in the autumn or winter is just that, a question.

Having it explained to me helped me understand why spring and summer applications are better for me and better for the environment. I did have to change things round a bit, but it makes me feel better that less of it is being wasted.

Thanks for explaining as an answer to I don't know what. I'm still none the wiser as to why you think I apply N in autumn/winter. No matter.

"By the way, shouldn't this be discussed on the autumn muck thread?"

I note you are happy to discuss this now......

 

[SteveHants]

I thought it was 5 or 6 weeks. But no, it only has to develop enough to carry a high margin sauce that tastes of something...

42 Days or thereabouts, 56 for free range broilers. A bit longer for organic (I forget - 60 something), but that is a different and less efficient bird.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Why shouldn't the head of the EA have his own opinion? He must be qualified to speak.

I think the dumping of sewage is absolutely effing appalling and cynical in the extreme. The people doing it should be in prison. Spreading muck and slurry that will almost inevitably end up in a water course or aquifer is nearly as bad.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Thanks for explaining as an answer to I don't know what. I'm still none the wiser as to why you think I apply N in autumn/winter. No matter.

"By the way, shouldn't this be discussed on the autumn muck thread?"

I note you are happy to discuss this now......

I don't know whether you would apply granular N over the autumn or winter which is why I asked. You could answer the question.

On the muck question, my position is that I am quite happy to spread muck in the spring and summer as I think I have explained already.

 

[DrWazzock]

The reason H&S was left in was to try and reduce the 35-50 people that are victim to fatal accidents on farms every year. That figure does not include those that have life changing injuries or more minor accidents and 'near misses'.
If anybody thinks it wont happen to them - think again. I have lost my father-in-law to an accident with a bull, my daughters boyfriend to a RTA whilst driving a badly maintained grain trailer, a daughter to suicide, and a neighbour is in a wheelchair after falling through a roof.

Very sorry to hear that. But consider the pressure and distraction the extra paperwork and inspection places on one man bands and people who can’t afford a consultant to sort out it all out for them.
And Health and safety inspections are a job for the Health and Safety Executive or inspectors and assessors trained in the specialist areas concerned. There is no way the RT inspector is qualified to perform such a role. I’ve already had highly dubious guidance on the matter from my RT inspector, saying I need written risk assessments in place. HSE says I don’t need them as I don’t employ anybody just myself. It’s obvious he hasn’t a clue about the subject but as usual it will tick the boxes and we will move on. He caused me 5 days of wasted work writing noddy guides that could have been spent actually checking machinery and doing essential maintenance.
And this goes to the heart of the RT problem. It’s obviously designed to suit corporate outfits with the administrative infrastructure to take up the additional bureaucratic work load. But myself and many other smaller farmers don’t work to that same model. But RT and the NFU have no understanding of that. It’s either conform to tge corporate model that we decide is the right one. or we will shut you down. Well some of us work to systems that are equally as safe and deliver a fine product but just don’t fit what RT sees as right. Grain temperature monitoring is another such area of difference. You don’t need a probe with a calibration certificate to tell you whether grain is too hot, unless maybe you have a massive store to monitor. It’s a ludicrous cost to a small grower in time and equipment.
I know nobody will understand. It’s hardly worth wasting time writing about it really. So we tick the boxes, make up some figures are allowed to carry on trading. What a joke.

 

[ollie989898]

My point is Red Tractor is damaging UK Farms reputation by misleading consumers - this needs to stop, they are certainly adding no value and are now actually damaging us all

Yet again this documentary shows the brand is utterly flawed so is therefore worthless to us

I disagree. Red tractor can't mislead consumers- none of them have a clue what it is or what is actually means. It's not even on many of the items in an average supermarket.

Again, I pose the question: if I am Mr Tesco, why the hell would I pay someone to use their ridiculous logo when my own suppliers of say, milk, are held to higher standards that I myself monitor and maintain? Red tractor is meaningless in the marketplace, overlaps with other assurance schemes (which, -strangely enough- do attract a premium) and the bulk of farmers on this forum have to abide by trading standards, HSE and environmental legislation- actual laws and so there is no need for red tractor.

 

[betweenthelines]

Why shouldn't the head of the EA have his own opinion? He must be qualified to speak.

I think the dumping of sewage is absolutely effing appalling and cynical in the extreme. The people doing it should be in prison. Spreading muck and slurry that will almost inevitably end up in a water course or aquifer is nearly as bad.

Of course he can have an opinion, but once he took a job with the EA he relinquished the right to air it in front of millions of people.

 

[Tractorstant]

I disagree. Red tractor can't mislead consumers- none of them have a clue what it is or what is actually means. It's not even on many of the items in an average supermarket.

Again, I pose the question: if I am Mr Tesco, why the hell would I pay someone to use their ridiculous logo when my own suppliers of say, milk, are held to higher standards that I myself monitor and maintain? Red tractor is meaningless in the marketplace, overlaps with other assurance schemes (which, -strangely enough- do attract a premium) and the bulk of farmers on this forum have to abide by trading standards, HSE and environmental legislation- actual laws and so there is no need for red tractor.

It's a Brand. Therefore people have a misguided trust in it.

 

[ollie989898]

It's a Brand. Therefore people have a misguided trust in it.

Of course it is a brand, but it doesn't appear on much supermarket produce and I don't honestly believe the brand has any market presence whatsoever. Consumers don't know anything about it nor what it actually means. Compared to the billions spent by food companies marketing their wares red tractor is a very very lame duck.

 

[DaveGrohl]

I don't know whether you would apply granular N over the autumn or winter which is why I asked. You could answer the question.

Oh, ok then, no.

Glad we've got that cleared up.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Of course he can have an opinion, but once he took a job with the EA he relinquished the right to air it in front of millions of people.

Bollards

 

[Jackov Altraids]

I don't know whether you would apply granular N over the autumn or winter which is why I asked. You could answer the question.

On the muck question, my position is that I am quite happy to spread muck in the spring and summer as I think I have explained already.

But you are being as ignorant as the EA in equating granular N with organic manure.
There is a huge difference in fym's, let alone the range from fym to slurries, each having different nutrient and spreading profiles.
As someone with decades of experience of spreading all types at all times of the year, I have learnt timings and locations require careful consideration.
On average, fym is most productive here when spread from September to December.
I can quite see that this might not be the best time to spread copious amounts of poultry muck in the Welsh valleys.

 

[ollie989898]

But you are being as ignorant as the EA in equating granular N with organic manure.
There is a huge difference in fym's, let alone the range from fym to slurries, each having different nutrient and spreading profiles.
As someone with decades of experience of spreading all types at all times of the year, I have learnt timings and locations require careful consideration.
On average, fym is most productive here when spread from September to December.

We don't get the winters we once did. Crops generally around here are growing on steady throughout the winter and I fully believe it is the application of manures in the autumn that keep them in good heart throughout this period.

If there is a serious issue with pollution from livestock manures in certain areas (not the entire country), then I would look at a scheme that puts the poultry litter into a powerstation and then return that as fibrophos type material which is a lot cheaper to transport and has zero smell or pollution risk.

However this would need to be done for odd areas, not entire counties or the like.

 

[JeepJeep]

The reality is... 99% of shoppers wouldn't realize or either care if the packaging had a horse and cart logo on it and Produce of Azerbaijan as long as it was cheap.

UK Most important bit to me... Ideally Welsh

 

[Steevo]

We don't get the winters we once did. Crops generally around here are growing on steady throughout the winter and I fully believe it is the application of manures in the autumn that keep them in good heart throughout this period.

If there is a serious issue with pollution from livestock manures in certain areas (not the entire country), then I would look at a scheme that puts the poultry litter into a powerstation and then return that as fibrophos type material which is a lot cheaper to transport and has zero smell or pollution risk.

However this would need to be done for odd areas, not entire counties or the like.

Or export the litter further afield to farms where pollution is not a factor.

 

[DrWazzock]

We don't get the winters we once did. Crops generally around here are growing on steady throughout the winter and I fully believe it is the application of manures in the autumn that keep them in good heart throughout this period.

If there is a serious issue with pollution from livestock manures in certain areas (not the entire country), then I would look at a scheme that puts the poultry litter into a powerstation and then return that as fibrophos type material which is a lot cheaper to transport and has zero smell or pollution risk.

However this would need to be done for odd areas, not entire counties or the like.

An approach proportionate to risk/benefit assessment. Far too sensible. It will never catch on.