Do Aircraft vapour trails form clouds?

[Paul_P]

Well its quite a complex system with many positive and negative feedbacks acting at the same time but I was wrong to say the oceans are accumulating heat instead. The oceans have always been absorbing heat energy at a greater rate than the land I think.
!

Well Ok, but I could say two things:
1. The oceans represent about 75% of the world's surface so that would surely be a 'given' with no more than casual thought.
2. Water has (about) the highest specific heat capacity of all substances, and so, again, can absorb lots of energy without heating up much and re-radiating.

The point about the scientists is that , as physical laws suggest that warming should occur as CO2 is dumped into the atmosphere, if it does not then they would be investigating why not. They have no need to perpetuate your so called global warming myth. They would get much more funding to investigate why no warming is happening.
!

I'm sorry but I can't accept that. Physical laws have been around for many decades and I don't remember investigation into a 'lack' of global warming before 'global warming' hit the headlines. I can remember (when I was about 10 watching Blue Peter) years ago, scientists were busy predicting a mini ice age for us all. That never happened. Scientists predicted that with the best science known to man at the time and got it 100% wrong, this global warming debate is based on exactly the same scenario!

Give it 50 years or so and if warming has not happened I will give you a tenner !

I think your tenner is safe, I'll be lucky to be around in 50 years

 

[linga]

Well Ok, but I could say two things:
1. The oceans represent about 75% of the world's surface so that would surely be a 'given' with no more than casual thought.
2. Water has (about) the highest specific heat capacity of all substances, and so, again, can absorb lots of energy without heating up much and re-radiating.



I'm sorry but I can't accept that. Physical laws have been around for many decades and I don't remember investigation into a 'lack' of global warming before 'global warming' hit the headlines. I can remember (when I was about 10 watching Blue Peter) years ago, scientists were busy predicting a mini ice age for us all. That never happened. Scientists predicted that with the best science known to man at the time and got it 100% wrong, this global warming debate is based on exactly the same scenario!



I think your tenner is safe, I'll be lucky to be around in 50 years

and warming due to CO2 has been around for a long time...without CO2 induced warming the world would be quite a lot colder. The question is how much extra warming will the extra CO2 cause.
Re. the predictions of a mini ice age...well it wasnt scientists that predicted that. Actually there were more papers predicting warming than cooling.
Oh, and I know my tenner will be safe as I wont be around either. I just hope you are not going to the same place as me !

 

[Paul_P]

and warming due to CO2 has been around for a long time...without CO2 induced warming the world would be quite a lot colder. The question is how much extra warming will the extra CO2 cause.
!

But temps have been dropping while CO2 increases of late, with more and more evidence out there suggesting we've been putting the cart before the horse. I'm not buying into this argument, there simply isn't the data to make the validity indisputable and there's so much good evidence to the contrary.

Meanwhile the UK economy goes down the pan due to artificially high government set floors on carbon tax - the price of which has collapsed, except for in the UK!

 

[linga]

But temps have been dropping while CO2 increases of late, with more and more evidence out there suggesting we've been putting the cart before the horse. I'm not buying into this argument, there simply isn't the data to make the validity indisputable and there's so much good evidence to the contrary.

Meanwhile the UK economy goes down the pan due to artificially high government set floors on carbon tax - the price of which has collapsed, except for in the UK!

But they havent....surface temperatures have been fairly level in the last fifteeen years that is true (incidentally even in that newspaper graph it shows a small increase) but the energy accumulation in the oceans has been continuing .
Its all very well concentrating on surface temperature but the important thing is how much energy the earth is accumulating as a whole.

 

[linga]

Ocean heat content graph shown below
"There's also a tendency for some people just to concentrate on air temperatures when there are other, more useful, indicators that can perhaps give us a better idea how rapidly the world is warming. Oceans for instance -- due to their immense size and heat storing capability (called 'thermal mass') -- tend to give a much more 'steady' indication of the warming that is happening. Here records show that the Earth has been warming at a steady rate before and since 1998 and there's no signs of it slowing any time soon.

Land, atmosphere, and ice heating (red), 0-700 meter ocean heat content (OHC) increase (light blue), 700-2,000 meter OHC increase (dark blue). From Nuccitelli et al. (2012).

 

[Pilatus]

This morning,when it was a blue sky no clouds around I noticed that the vapour trails from aircraft were disappearing very quickly. What atmospheric
conditions would make this happen?

 

[linga]

Think it means there is very little moisture up there

 

[wobs]

This morning,when it was a blue sky no clouds around I noticed that the vapour trails from aircraft were disappearing very quickly. What atmospheric
conditions would make this happen?

fast flowing jet stream

 

[wobs]

Don't get wrapped up with the science of weather prediction.
It'll only make you think you are clever then bite ya on the arse.

 

[Paul_P]

Ocean heat content graph shown below
"There's also a tendency for some people just to concentrate on air temperatures when there are other, more useful, indicators that can perhaps give us a better idea how rapidly the world is warming. Oceans for instance -- due to their immense size and heat storing capability (called 'thermal mass') -- tend to give a much more 'steady' indication of the warming that is happening. Here records show that the Earth has been warming at a steady rate before and since 1998 and there's no signs of it slowing any time soon.

Land, atmosphere, and ice heating (red), 0-700 meter ocean heat content (OHC) increase (light blue), 700-2,000 meter OHC increase (dark blue). From Nuccitelli et al. (2012).

Well that looks suspicious. The graph starts off at zero heat content (and even defies the laws of physics with a negative value) implying that in 1960 the ocean temperature must have been absolute zero!

 

[linga]

best take it up with Nuccitelli then

 

[Paul_P]

best take it up with Nuccitelli then

I don't think we need to. It's clearly a graph with a dramatically distorted 'y' axis with a fudged datum, the idea being to make nothing look dramatic.

 

[linga]

You know best then...mind you it is from a peer reviewed paper: and you can do what you like with the y axis, it clearly shows the relationship between the heat content of the ocean and that of the land. If the datum is too fudged for you why not blank out the bit from 1960 to 1980 and start from there..what happens to ocean heat content relative to land ?

 

[Lincsman]

Ocean heat content graph shown below
"There's also a tendency for some people just to concentrate on air temperatures when there are other, more useful, indicators that can perhaps give us a better idea how rapidly the world is warming. Oceans for instance -- due to their immense size and heat storing capability (called 'thermal mass') -- tend to give a much more 'steady' indication of the warming that is happening. Here records show that the Earth has been warming at a steady rate before and since 1998 and there's no signs of it slowing any time soon.

Land, atmosphere, and ice heating (red), 0-700 meter ocean heat content (OHC) increase (light blue), 700-2,000 meter OHC increase (dark blue). From Nuccitelli et al. (2012).

In 1967 all the oceans were frozen to -4.5?... or is that not temp? and just massive global cooling?