Do Scottish suckler farmers need support??? Here are the figures

[Farmer Roy]

I have offered a lot of UK farmers to help their kids find a good harvest or seeding job out here. Even said they could fly in to Sydney and we would put them up for a few nights before they head out on farm then check up on them from time to time when im travelling around and not a single one has come close to taking me up on the offer. The reply is always the same "They are needed at home"

haha - just waiting for the Farming Boss to reply to your comments

 

[stewart]

funny - it is quite rare here for farmers kids to just stay at home
I would say most parents would encourage them to get out a bit
some travel for a while
some work for other farmers
some get trades
some go to college / uni then work elsewhere for a while

then they come back in their late 20's - early 30's having made the decision that is what they REALLY want to do & having seen a fair bit of life beyond the boundary fence as well
A bit like the Amish - kick them out into the big bad world, then when they come back it is THEIR decision

in my opinion, any farm that relies on unpaid family labour, just like subsidies - really needs to look at their business model & wether its viable or not . . .

Same in NZ, it is a right of passage to travel overseas, the Kiwis and Aussies have done it for years, just remind me again where the successful farming enterprises are!!

 

[Bojangles]

I should say that many UK farmers do encourage their kids to go away for a short time but I think more should encourage them to stay away for 5-10 years

 

[Farmer Roy]

I was 30 when I finally decided to settle at ' home '

 

[Henarar]

It should be compulsory for farmers sons to work off farm for at least a year preferably 2 or 3 and preferably overseas,

then they can go home to farm if there is a farm left for them to go home to
mind you it was probably only part time in the first place according to you

 

[David_A]

Time For me to throw my hat in the ring and then get my tin hat on.
I can see that many people on here think that some posters are moaning and looking for handouts, that is fair as in general a lot are although you have to put it in context. The majority of farmers in Scotland have never known anything other than the subsidised system so you can’t be too critical of them panicking about the vast changes that will come. If you operate any business based on the lie of the land and suddenly the entire landscape changes you MUST be prepared to change with it (easy to say I know) The problem is the great unknown that is ahead. How can anyone plan for a future that has not been seen and how can anyone budget for a future using the figures of the past when all will be different. There is nothing to show that farmers who are currently viable will remain so once the changes take place although they should be the best equipped to do so.
We can compare with the removal of support in NZ in the 80s but this is not reliable as the NZ banks were actively encouraged to make facilities available to Ag. NZ also had the fastest growing market for dairy produce across the water. There are I am sure lessons to be learned from them and I would encourage anyone on here to take a month away and go there and Australia to have a look and find some new ideas. South America also.
The days of single income households has gone and lets think about how much we get from our farms that break even. A home, Utilities paid, A vehicle, Fuel, The room to grow our own food and a lifestyle. Most couples would not get all this from one of their salaries. So what is wrong with one running a farm and the other working off the farm? As a family unit this puts you in the top earning brackets as a couple if you apply the real life value of everything a farm can bring.
On the other hand if you are currently running a unit that you know has no chance of making a profit in the future because of land type etc., why not sell up and buy a unit that you think will be more equipped for the future like a place with good out wintering ground rather than big sheds.
I am probably stupid for returning to Scotland to farm with such a cloudy future BUT. When I left there was no opportunity for a young farmer to be had. The subsidy system was completely flawed and kept us out and kept old men in. Now change is on the horizon and I will take the risk as I know there will be opportunity in the next few years. I am sad that so many people will go under but at least there will be room for more to join. I am lucky as I have a good farm to return to that is rented but it turns a good profit ATM due to low production costs. This may change and I could end up going under too but I will try. I look ahead with hope for us all but anyone who looks in the rear view mirror too much doesn’t have their eyes on the road ahead.
Good luck to you all

At last a positive attitude, well done that man.

 

[turbo]

There will be plenty of opportunities after brexit,it will be being able to spot the good ones that will be the hard part.as for being away from the home farm for some time,I had 3 years away including 14 months on another farm and it was the best thing I ever did

 

[Kiwi Pete]

@Kiwi Pete says this a lot, but it is something I have thought for years & firmly agree with. Time away from your farm, time spent just thinking, contemplating, doing nothing - is probably some of the most valuable time you will spend
Too many get stuck within their boundary fence, focussing on being constantly busy, that it makes it very hard to see alternatives, options or any other opportunities

Why else would they have called it re-creation?
I find my dirtbike and diving, hunting and fishing to be really good ways to leave the problems behind and come home with solutions... in a way you just can't solve problems with the same capacity, if you are immersed in it.

The odd part about leaving home and getting farming experience elsewhere in my case was: I saw how they did it "The Proper Way" with all the problems it created - then bought our own bit and farmed it almost exactly how we did at home.

That's probably why I suffer from stress no more than the old boy did, "if the sun comes up we make money"
At least I know why not to do it the proper way, too fudgeing expensive and risky is why.
The experience was still invaluable, all of it, even the forestry and contracting experience taught me more than I'd have learnt at home.
Those sharemilkers were far more entrepreneurial and ambitious than my family.

 

[Brisel]

You couldn't make suckler cows pay so got rid of them, I somehow don't see you going into sheep as the margins in them are no better than arable currently, and that assumes that trade deals/ the exchange rate doesn't go against the sheep trade post brexit and if these two things happen then sheep margins will be a lot worse than arable.

As for me by the time subs go ( which wont happen for at least 20 years as this Con government wont last until 2022 given TM's speech today ) i will either be retired or 6ft under!

I've no intention of "going into sheep" as such. I'm not expert on their husbandry & have enough to do with the arable, estate projects & environmental schemes. I got rid of the sucklers because they took excessive resources for an enterprise that made a small loss. Whilst mixed farming is best for the land there is a danger of being a jack-of-all-trades but master of none. We chose to specialise in arable and environmental schemes & the grazing is currently let to a local dairy farmer who has been able to expand without having to buy or take a tenancy on more land.

The likely plan will be to find a specialist who will provide the sheep & management. We'll provide the land, fence it then look at a joint venture or grazing licence as appropriate. I currently have a local shepherd grazing my turnips - he, like a few more enterprising TFF members, is a self made person who gets no direct subsidy. He runs a low overhead system & doesn't complain about the state of the world. There are a few more like him that don't have the emotional baggage that comes from a lifetime of taxpayer support that some seem to carry.

You have a fair point about the exchange rate & trade deal. A lack of BPS is one thing but a tariff barrier & strong £ would really mess things up for extensive land based grazing livestock (and arable too). There is much to be sorted here and in Westminster/Brussels so this is not an advert for a grazing partner right now! Fencing a couple of thousand acres won't be cheap, nor will installing the water supplies but we'd do a bit each year or just keep it cheap & stay with electric fencing plus bowsers.

 

[Brisel]

The grass was greener
The light was brighter
The taste was sweeter
The nights of wonder
With friends surrounded
The dawn mist glowing
The water flowing
The endless river

Pink Floyd's peace offering to Roger Waters?
High Hopes

Sorry for the late reply, I'm wading through the thread playing catch up after I got tagged by GUTH.

 

[Bossfarmer]

I have been listening and I know that the thread is about the Scottish beef sector. If the whole sector and every producer cannot make it pay then that is the end of beef production in Scotland.
I perhaps have more faith in farmers than you do and believe that there will still be Scottish beef production post subsidy removal. It may look different than it does now but will still be there.

it has been highlighted many times a critical mass is needed for the sector to remain, it creates logistical problems when markets and slaughter houses start closing and a lack of produce for the supermarkets to buy will mean the irish beef will just displace us

 

[Brisel]

it has been highlighted many times a critical mass is needed for the sector to remain, it creates logistical problems when markets and slaughter houses start closing and a lack of produce for the supermarkets to buy will mean the irish beef will just displace us

You'd be surprised at how small that critical mass is. The abbatoir capacity is the current problem, with long distances between an ever decreasing number of plants.

 

[Farmer Roy]

do the Irish have warehouses stocked full of frozen beef, just waiting to dump it on the UK?
otherwise, where is it all coming from ?

 

[Happy]

do the Irish have warehouses stocked full of frozen beef, just waiting to dump it on the UK?
otherwise, where is it all coming from ?

Poland

 

[Bossfarmer]

well said, give yourself a ball rub

I am SO glad there are some with enthusiasm, a positive mindset & who CAN see potential opportunities
I don't think I have ever actually tried to tell members here HOW to farm ( that would plainly be stupid & I apologise if anyone thinks I have ) but have continually encourage them to look at options, maybe change their thinking or attitudes. It is just this CONSTANT negativity, problem to every solution, hand wringing attitude that gets me, but I do understand your point about people only ever knowing one system & how hard it must be to adapt . . . Uncertainties are the scarier than actual reality generally . . .

I'll put a tin hat on now, maybe your time away from home working in another country has helped broaden your outlook ?

what exactly are the opportunitites and upside unless you dont currently have a farm and want to get a cheap one off someone who has been forced to quit? all i can see is £60/cow coming off the figures quoted in the first post, yes some of my neighbours may drop out and i may get an opportunity to expand but i dont necessarily want that, may be forced to though the only way the figures could stack up is for 400 cow herd type scale with no outside labour and thats a lot of work/ requires investment in large efficient set up

 

[tepapa]

what exactly are the opportunitites and upside unless you dont currently have a farm and want to get a cheap one off someone who has been forced to quit? all i can see is £60/cow coming off the figures quoted in the first post, yes some of my neighbours may drop out and i may get an opportunity to expand but i dont necessarily want that, may be forced to though the only way the figures could stack up is for 400 cow herd type scale with no outside labour and thats a lot of work/ requires investment in large efficient set up

If it was really only £60/cow why would anyone a) want to keep suckler cows and b) invest in new cattle courts/sheds. The figures and reality are painting different pictures.

 

[Bossfarmer]

I've no intention of "going into sheep" as such. I'm not expert on their husbandry & have enough to do with the arable, estate projects & environmental schemes. I got rid of the sucklers because they took excessive resources for an enterprise that made a small loss. Whilst mixed farming is best for the land there is a danger of being a jack-of-all-trades but master of none. We chose to specialise in arable and environmental schemes & the grazing is currently let to a local dairy farmer who has been able to expand without having to buy or take a tenancy on more land.

The likely plan will be to find a specialist who will provide the sheep & management. We'll provide the land, fence it then look at a joint venture or grazing licence as appropriate. I currently have a local shepherd grazing my turnips - he, like a few more enterprising TFF members, is a self made person who gets no direct subsidy. He runs a low overhead system & doesn't complain about the state of the world. There are a few more like him that don't have the emotional baggage that comes from a lifetime of taxpayer support that some seem to carry.

You have a fair point about the exchange rate & trade deal. A lack of BPS is one thing but a tariff barrier & strong £ would really mess things up for extensive land based grazing livestock (and arable too). There is much to be sorted here and in Westminster/Brussels so this is not an advert for a grazing partner right now! Fencing a couple of thousand acres won't be cheap, nor will installing the water supplies but we'd do a bit each year or just keep it cheap & stay with electric fencing plus bowsers.

A lack of BPS is one thing but a tariff barrier & strong £ would really mess things up for extensive land based grazing livestock,

im sure your grazer will be doing a fine job and getting by but will be vastly underpaid in comparison to the UK public and he hasnt invested huge amounts of capital so shouldnt expect to make as much as a farm owner

the £ fluctuates and a strong £ is always a possibility in the future as well as high interest rates so be careful those who currently see a small margin without subs

 

[Bossfarmer]

haha - just waiting for the Farming Boss to reply to your comments

ive been out there round farms in both oz and NZ

 

[Bossfarmer]

do the Irish have warehouses stocked full of frozen beef, just waiting to dump it on the UK?
otherwise, where is it all coming from ?

its coming from ireland obviously

It is the biggest net exporter [by value/volume or both] of beef in the EU and the 5th biggest in the world. Exports in 2013 amounted to 470,000 tonnes worth over €2.1 billion. ... The United Kingdom remains the dominant export market for Irish beef, representing 53% of exports or 250,000 tonne

 

[Bossfarmer]

If it was really only £60/cow why would anyone a) want to keep suckler cows and b) invest in new cattle courts/sheds. The figures and reality are painting different pictures.

the reality is that many beef farmers are dipping into their bps