Does anybody have experience with heat batteries/thermal core storage?

[primmiemoo]

They seem to be well-insulated cored storage heaters, so it appears that they store up heat using electricity from a variety of sources ~ spare output from renewables, and cheapest off peak electricity ~ which is used on demand for hot water and, to some extent, heating radiators.

Being a bit of a numpty when it comes to physics, I wonder what drawbacks there are with them, and why we don't all have one to help replace oil and gas powered boilers?

 

[primmiemoo]

This sort of thing?

Compact thermal energy storage for hot water, heating & cooling - Sunamp Global

Thermal energy storage solutions that make homes, buildings & vehicles more energy-efficient & sustainable while reducing carbon emissions.

sunamp.com

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

A useful if slightly old summary here: https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/si...orts/Factsheet_Energy storage_version 1.2.pdf

 

[primmiemoo]

Thank you, @holwellcourtfarm , that's the sort of uncomplicated description I need.

I looked into using biofuel made from used plant oils and waste tallows for the stove (there's a fuel merchant who is already trialling it with customers in the region), but don't like what I read elsewhere about discovery of illegal inclusion of fresh soya and palm oils, so, until there is a guarantee that the biofuel is all from used sources, it seems to make more and more sense to go down the renewables route and store as much energy from them as possible in a variety of ways.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Thank you, @holwellcourtfarm , that's the sort of uncomplicated description I need.

I looked into using biofuel made from used plant oils and waste tallows for the stove (there's a fuel merchant who is already trialling it with customers in the region), but don't like what I read elsewhere about discovery of illegal inclusion of fresh soya and palm oils, so, until there is a guarantee that the biofuel is all from used sources, it seems to make more and more sense to go down the renewables route and store as much energy from them as possible in a variety of ways.

Have a look at this report then for how fudged up biofuel policy implementation is.....

https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/CE_Delft__200247_UCO_as_biofuel_feedstock_in_EU_FINAL%20-%20v5_0.pdf

 

[renewablejohn]

If your looking at higher temperatures upto 230C then I have a bit of experience with thermal stores using thermal oil as well as steam accumulators.

 

[primmiemoo]

If your looking at higher temperatures upto 230C then I have a bit of experience with thermal stores using thermal oil as well as steam accumulators.

I'm not quite sure what heats are involved, but I have a mental image of a store that will ensure a core of warmth in the ground floor when needed, plus hot water on demand from something secondary to the immersion heater (which I would hope will continue to be a core of warmth upstairs).

Spot the numpty time, sorry, but would the stores you know be equivalent to scaled up* thermos flasks but with heat exchangers added?


*ie, the other sort of scale

 

[renewablejohn]

I'm not quite sure what heats are involved, but I have a mental image of a store that will ensure a core of warmth in the ground floor when needed, plus hot water on demand from something secondary to the immersion heater (which I would hope will continue to be a core of warmth upstairs).

Spot the numpty time, sorry, but would the stores you know be equivalent to scaled up* thermos flasks but with heat exchangers added?


*ie, the other sort of scale

Your quite right its a bit bigger scale typically a standard size shipping container quite often manufactured for storage of hot asphalt but repurposed for hot thermal oil upto 230C typically used in a bakery to supply heat and steam to the ovens as well as hot water and central heating all from renewable sources of thermal solar, PV and biomass including bakery waste. So yes would easily do the job you envisage and a lot more besides but rather overkill for your needs.

 

[primmiemoo]

Hmmmm. The house was built to produce butter and cream, so had cold built into it. Any comfort for the tenants was an afterthought. It isn't a huge place, either.

A shipping container full of delicious heat would not be overkill!

 

[renewablejohn]

This is what they look like or parker plant who start with a standard shipping container.

Danteco - 20FT Thermal-Oil Type

T3 ISO bitumen tank thermal-oil type containers are approved by international statutory authorities for the safe transportation of Bitumen, Asphalt, and Heavy Crude Oil products. Available with Flame Tube heating systems (diesel burners) or Thermal Oil Heating System.

www.danteco.com

If you get the thermal oil heated versions then you can heat with a biomass thermal oil boiler, or high temperature thermal solar tubes which use thermal oil or electric PV which heat the thermal oil. Just have to be careful with plumbing as normal plumbers are not used to 200C temperatures and its all thermal oil industrial fittings as standard plumbing will leak and at those temperatures very dangerous. Once you have the hot oil its just a question of what you do with it whether cooking like a bakery or turning into steam with a steam evaporator for using in a CHP plant or heat exchanger for hot water.

 

[primmiemoo]

This is certainly something I can discuss at home. If there's proven equipment in industry, there might be something at domestic scale, or a new area to explore in other ways.

 

[renewablejohn]

This is certainly something I can discuss at home. If there's proven equipment in industry, there might be something at domestic scale, or a new area to explore in other ways.

If its any help I did get approval from Dunsley to use there Dunsley Yorkshire central heating boiler with thermal oil instead of water.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

If its any help I did get approval from Dunsley to use there Dunsley Yorkshire central heating boiler with thermal oil instead of water.

Was that to take the oil up to 200ⁿC+?

 

[renewablejohn]

Was that to take the oil up to 200ⁿC+?

Yes.

 

[How much]

there was an article in the times the other day about a start up company who had developed heat batteries for domestic use , all very new and experimental but they anticipated that "cheap" energy could be obtained from the grid via a smart meter when it was not required elsewhere and would heat what was anticipated to be a container around the size of a heating oil tank that had some sort of mineral in it . It was anticipated it would be used in rural area mainly to offset the loss of oil heating when it eventually get banned
down side seemed to be cheap energy seems to not be available I have economy 7 and the difference in rate is very small at the moment at least and i would be very surprised if the losses in filling the battery made the energy difference cost zero.
plus at best it stored enough heat for around a days use storing energy or heat for a longer time from a very windy day or very sunny day makes much more sense but you would ultimately think "overnight energy" is going to used in car batteries and wont be cheap anyway

 

[Exfarmer]

there was an article in the times the other day about a start up company who had developed heat batteries for domestic use , all very new and experimental but they anticipated that "cheap" energy could be obtained from the grid via a smart meter when it was not required elsewhere and would heat what was anticipated to be a container around the size of a heating oil tank that had some sort of mineral in it . It was anticipated it would be used in rural area mainly to offset the loss of oil heating when it eventually get banned
down side seemed to be cheap energy seems to not be available I have economy 7 and the difference in rate is very small at the moment at least and i would be very surprised if the losses in filling the battery made the energy difference cost zero.
plus at best it stored enough heat for around a days use storing energy or heat for a longer time from a very windy day or very sunny day makes much more sense but you would ultimately think "overnight energy" is going to used in car batteries and wont be cheap anyway

Tesla and Octopus offer , what seems an amazing deal on power promising rates of 10-12 p per unit.
Enomy seven is still about but the days of extremely cheap power at night are over , except in exceptional circumstances, due to the change away from the big old coal fired stations which took several hours to fire up. meaning they were left running continuously whether the demand was there or not.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

there was an article in the times the other day about a start up company who had developed heat batteries for domestic use , all very new and experimental but they anticipated that "cheap" energy could be obtained from the grid via a smart meter when it was not required elsewhere and would heat what was anticipated to be a container around the size of a heating oil tank that had some sort of mineral in it . It was anticipated it would be used in rural area mainly to offset the loss of oil heating when it eventually get banned
down side seemed to be cheap energy seems to not be available I have economy 7 and the difference in rate is very small at the moment at least and i would be very surprised if the losses in filling the battery made the energy difference cost zero.
plus at best it stored enough heat for around a days use storing energy or heat for a longer time from a very windy day or very sunny day makes much more sense but you would ultimately think "overnight energy" is going to used in car batteries and wont be cheap anyway

Seven years ago I looked into replacing our oil boiler with biomass. I quite liked the idea of a boiler made in Ireland. It was effectively a 600 gallon water tank wrapped round a fan ventilated wood burner with flute heat capture. The idea was to install it alongside the house and heavily insulate it then burn waste wood to heat the water to 95°C and use it as a heat store over 3 days. It was just too dear at around £11k before insulating it and was not RHI eligible.

 

[primmiemoo]

there was an article in the times the other day about a start up company who had developed heat batteries for domestic use , all very new and experimental but they anticipated that "cheap" energy could be obtained from the grid via a smart meter when it was not required elsewhere and would heat what was anticipated to be a container around the size of a heating oil tank that had some sort of mineral in it . It was anticipated it would be used in rural area mainly to offset the loss of oil heating when it eventually get banned
down side seemed to be cheap energy seems to not be available I have economy 7 and the difference in rate is very small at the moment at least and i would be very surprised if the losses in filling the battery made the energy difference cost zero.
plus at best it stored enough heat for around a days use storing energy or heat for a longer time from a very windy day or very sunny day makes much more sense but you would ultimately think "overnight energy" is going to used in car batteries and wont be cheap anyway

I have seen the startup mentioned elsewhere. It should bring competition into the storage sector if it isn't overly expensive.

There is a spot market electricity tariff (Octopus) available to charge EVs, so that could also charge a heat store at a unit price lower than oil ~ unless everyone jumps onto it, and the price rises. Even on cloudy days, domestic PV would have spare to send to a battery, too. I wonder whether harnessing heat generated in the dung heap would be a good enough source. Many a mickle, as they say.

 

[chickens and wheat]

Id like an electric heat battery with an in built fire, so on cold days you could boost the thing with a couple of burnt pallets,amazon packages etc etc

 

[renewablejohn]

Id like an electric heat battery with an in built fire, so on cold days you could boost the thing with a couple of burnt pallets,amazon packages etc etc

Its simple enough to do. A lot of bakeries are now biomass heated thermal oil as the thermal oil oven produces far better bread and pastries then the equivalent gas fired oven.