Does anyone manage their sheep enterprise

[Highland Mule]

We do, most of the points have already been covered.
Nobody seems to like "race meat" much so we generally finish them as slowly as possible; kill them quietly, hang them for a minimum of one week but prefer 10 days, and let them into "the garden" for their last month of life where they can pick whatever they want to eat.

And, the last thing they want to eat is grass: borage sage thyme and generally anything but grass... milk thistle is good feed for finishing lambs

We have orders for lamb stretching out 14 months ahead of us, can't keep up, don't even try to keep up

How many orders do you fulfil in a typical year?

 

[unlacedgecko]

I speak to an Australian lamb producer. He thinks it’s absolutely insane that the U.K. processors don’t account for taste/eating experience when paying for carcasses. In Australia apparently there is lots of work done on taste and tenderness. I understand some tups will be sold with a tenderness EBV, similar to US beef bulls.

 

[Henarar]

for taste ?
We have plenty fruit growers round here, they talk about the taste of so and so strawberry or apple.
Have seen a thread on here discussing the taste of different breeds of beef.
Dairy producers need to be wary of certain feeds for fear of tainting the milk.
The OH moans that the potatoes in the veg box have no taste, which I believe is influenced by the soil type as much as the variety.
Does anyone make any management decisions with their sheep business that are influenced by taste ? Curious.

We don't push them hard, take them ourselves to a good slaughter house that seems not to stress them and they make a good job of killing hanging and butchering them, had good feedback on taste

 

[Henarar]

I speak to an Australian lamb producer. He thinks it’s absolutely insane that the U.K. processors don’t account for taste/eating experience when paying for carcasses. In Australia apparently there is lots of work done on taste and tenderness. I understand some tups will be sold with a tenderness EBV, similar to US beef bulls.

what would be the point when many processors and that is all they are processers bugger them up after they have got their mits on them anyway ?

 

[glasshouse]

A most misleading thread title

 

[neilo]

I speak to an Australian lamb producer. He thinks it’s absolutely insane that the U.K. processors don’t account for taste/eating experience when paying for carcasses. In Australia apparently there is lots of work done on taste and tenderness. I understand some tups will be sold with a tenderness EBV, similar to US beef bulls.

If you care to look on the Signet database, all recorded terminal sire rams will have an ebv published for imf%, although accuracy won't be particularly high on most as few are CT scanned to generate the data. If the will were there, everything is already in place to select for it in the UK.

 

[unlacedgecko]

If you care to look on the Signet database, all recorded terminal sire rams will have an ebv published for imf%, although accuracy won't be particularly high on most as few are CT scanned to generate the data. If the will were there, everything is already in place to select for it in the UK.

yeah I’m aware of CT scanning. But there is very little/no shear testing done of carcasses in the U.K.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

How many orders do you fulfil in a typical year?

It varies a bit, time is the issue as I seem to be relied upon more and more at work.
Last year we only killed about 30 but this year we may do more, the other option is that we just sell our lambs to a butcher and forget about it, I am a lousy farmer

 

[neilo]

yeah I’m aware of CT scanning. But there is very little/no shear testing done of carcasses in the U.K.

It is being done on a proportion of lambs from each sire in the RamCompare project, again feeding back into the BLUP analysis that generates ebvs.

It will only really be pushed to the fore if there is a premium attached to breeding lambs that way. As grading is currently, price is set by visual shape of a carcass hanging up, and a visual assessment of the subcutaneous fat level of that carcass, whether they are sold live or dead.

 

[Wink]

Yes though not specifically with sheep - pigs - we work with the end product first (taste/tenderness) but want the commercial aspect eg growth/conformation to go alongside which can be done.

It is kind of a lifelong goal I think, to find a breed/cross/system to provide what is considered to be the best even if it was just for me to market with sheep in a small way. I take great joy in trying the different breeds/ages etc but that is a long process and there are far more variants - age/diet being the most prevalent perhaps, to provide consistency but then again that's part of the beauty of the different sheep breeds and regional variations in many respects?

Intramuscular fat in particular is what I would like to concentrate on. I would be keen to speak to anyone in the process of doing anything along these lines or any groups I could get involved in part time. I only keep a small handful of sheep and guess you need larger numbers to get the data sets needed?

Also if anyone knows of anyone that keeps romanov sheep in the UK? Found a few/a studies relating to meat quality in these and finn Sheep and seem to remember someone on here suggesting the same? @NZDan perhaps?

Great thread @delilah .

 

[Woolless]

Yes though not specifically with sheep - pigs - we work with the end product first (taste/tenderness) but want the commercial aspect eg growth/conformation to go alongside which can be done.

It is kind of a lifelong goal I think, to find a breed/cross/system to provide what is considered to be the best even if it was just for me to market with sheep in a small way. I take great joy in trying the different breeds/ages etc but that is a long process and there are far more variants - age/diet being the most prevalent perhaps, to provide consistency but then again that's part of the beauty of the different sheep breeds and regional variations in many respects?

Intramuscular fat in particular is what I would like to concentrate on. I would be keen to speak to anyone in the process of doing anything along these lines or any groups I could get involved in part time. I only keep a small handful of sheep and guess you need larger numbers to get the data sets needed?

Also if anyone knows of anyone that keeps romanov sheep in the UK? Found a few/a studies relating to meat quality in these and finn Sheep and seem to remember someone on here suggesting the same? @NZDan perhaps?

Great thread @delilah .

On the pig side, are Durocs not meant to be good eating, of the more commercial breeds anyway.

The little I have seen about eating quality in commercial sheep breeds would suggest that the native breeds are in front of the continentals.

 

[unlacedgecko]

On the pig side, are Durocs not meant to be good eating, of the more commercial breeds anyway.

The little I have seen about eating quality in commercial sheep breeds would suggest that the native breeds are in front of the continentals.

Same as beef then.

 

[Wink]

On the pig side, are Durocs not meant to be good eating, of the more commercial breeds anyway.

The little I have seen about eating quality in commercial sheep breeds would suggest that the native breeds are in front of the continentals.

Yes durocs are one of the better ones but "Hampshire" is our main genetics we use (in terms of meat eating quality) (no longer keeping pigs) - crossed with others, perhaps including the duroc, to provide a good all round functioning pig in terms of meat quality and functionality/commercial eg litter size, growth, conformation, thriftyness outdoors etc etc. And they don't get overfat like some of the rarer/traditional breeds - important for the average customer.

Sheep in general perhaps yes from what I have seen, though I was particularly impressed with some Charmoise @Keepers in recent times - really good visual IMF but would need greater numbers to work with and some science to back up.

 

[farmerm]

think from their behaviour mine might taste of venison

I seem to have a few of those too! Recently had a lamb climb out of a shoulder high window opening and jump clear over a barb wire topped fence, 2 stable doors and a small child in its efforts to avoid being weaned

 

[delilah]

On the pig side, are Durocs not meant to be good eating,

will tell you at Christmas .

 

[clod hopper]

I seem to have a few of those too! Recently had a lamb climb out of a shoulder high window opening and jump clear over a barb wire topped fence, 2 stable doors and a small child in its efforts to avoid being weaned

Careful! Spin will want to buy said lamb from you! He has a flock of SPRING lambs of a HIGH standard!

 

[delilah]

It will only really be pushed to the fore if there is a premium attached to breeding lambs that way. As grading is currently, price is set by visual shape of a carcass hanging up, and a visual assessment of the subcutaneous fat level of that carcass, whether they are sold live or dead.

Several references to intramuscular fat (which I am guessing is what in beef is called marbling ?) and its relevance to taste/ tenderness. Has analytical work been done on this in the form of consumer taste trials ? If the evidence is there, how far away is the market in paying a £/kg premium for this ?

 

[neilo]

On the pig side, are Durocs not meant to be good eating, of the more commercial breeds anyway.

The little I have seen about eating quality in commercial sheep breeds would suggest that the native breeds are in front of the continentals.

We rear a couple of pure Durocs for the freezer most years. They are indeed good eating, and don’t run to fat like some of the more traditional breeds.
That said, I wouldn’t attempt to rear them on a handful of nuts and an acre of (soon to be) knackered paddock. Horses for courses.

As for ‘traditional’ breeds being necessarily better for eating quality, I’ve yet to see any evidence for that, just hearsay by owners of those breeds that kill one for the freezer. I suspect they might have a stronger taste (if that’s your thing), by virtue of growing more slowly, but that would normally make for much denser muscle tissue I’d have thought.

At one time, the Jacob Society was advising their members to use a Charollais as a crossing sire, to improve the texture of the meat

 

[neilo]

Several references to intramuscular fat (which I am guessing is what in beef is called marbling ?) and its relevance to taste/ tenderness. Has analytical work been done on this in the form of consumer taste trials ? If the evidence is there, how far away is the market in paying a £/kg premium for this ?

Yes, imf is the same as marbling, fat within the muscle, rather than under the skin (but there is a correlation iirc).
The Waitrose/Innovis/Focus Prime tie up is on the back of consumer taste tests, and is a premium scheme for using those rams. Not much of a premium though I’m told, and carcass grades drop, much like the beef premium schemes only make up for the reduction in confirmation bonuses and efficiency of weight gain.

I’m pretty sure AHDB have done consumer testing as well.

The Waitrose scheme is tiny in the grand scheme of things, selling a niche product at a premium price. It could never be rolled out on a scale that would effect the industry as a whole, or not by adding a premium to an already expensive meat.

At the other extreme, Beltexes are ridiculously low in imf (although there will be breed variation), yet they attract premium prices...

 

[Bury the Trash]

With regards marbling, there is an optimum , too much marbling and it makes too much ' stringyness' imo.