Does Direct Drilling actually save money

jonnyjon

Member
It all depends on your mindset, are you trying to farm without tillage or a notill system because they are poles apart. Taking the short term view that .5 tonne pays for a lot of tillage is the reason so many people fail and are stuck in a system of more tillage and more chemicals. Can people not see that that system is broken and has no long term future
 

Brian

Member
Location
Northamptonshire
Its that time of year when I sit down and review costings.
Whilst I do that I ask several questions,
Can I do it better , cheaper , more efficiently , differently etc.

So my question is this ,

Those of you who have moved to a genuine direct drilling system have you actually
1 Saved money
2 Increased profit

The reason I ask is this, we direct drill OSR , then we have 2 passes before drilling wheat, Sumo , joker, drill)
and 1 before drilling beans (sumo trio)
So effectively 1 1/2 passes before drilling across the total acreage , all rolled after .

A lot of the direct drilling passes all involve either a straw rake , or cover crop seeding pass.inc covers

Assuming we spray , fertilize and harvest at the same cost, is direct drilling saving approx. £10-12 acre in establishment costs.
Which whilst is a substantial saving on a 1000 acres, is it a big enough saving to warrant investment in a new drill .

I understand direct drilling is more than just changing the drill and its a mindset thing with a change in rotation labour practices etc , but for those who have just changed a machine did it pay?

Those of you who changed complete systems , do you find management easier, and is your farming business more profitable ?

If it is, and I suppose this is what I am really trying to find out , is your new system Brexit proof in other words are you making enough profit before subsidy to make a living at todays prices .

Its a bit of a convoluted question ,


Just buy a Cross slot and be done with talking about it Mark!!
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
It all depends on your mindset, are you trying to farm without tillage or a notill system because they are poles apart. Taking the short term view that .5 tonne pays for a lot of tillage is the reason so many people fail and are stuck in a system of more tillage and more chemicals. Can people not see that that system is broken and has no long term future

The system has managed for the last few hundred years! No need to quote Dustbowls and declining soil organic matters to me ;)

What would you say the main barriers are to switching to DD @Fred ?
  • Fear of failure
  • Reduced yields, particularly in the first few years
  • Slugs
  • Grass weeds like sterile brome
  • Lack of knowledge
  • Increased crop disease from surface residues like fusarium, sclerotinia
  • Timing is everything
  • Dependency on glyphosate
  • Spending your cultivation savings on cover crops
  • Poor soil structure and compaction
  • Harder to adopt on very heavy warp clays and light sands that have no natural structure
https://www.ahdb.org.uk/no-till
 

jonnyjon

Member
The system has managed for the last few hundred years! No need to quote Dustbowls and declining soil organic matters to me ;)

What would you say the main barriers are to switching to DD @Fred ?
  • Fear of failure
  • Reduced yields, particularly in the first few years
  • Slugs
  • Grass weeds like sterile brome
  • Lack of knowledge
  • Increased crop disease from surface residues like fusarium, sclerotinia
  • Timing is everything
  • Dependency on glyphosate
  • Spending your cultivation savings on cover crops
  • Poor soil structure and compaction
  • Harder to adopt on very heavy warp clays and light sands that have no natural structure
https://www.ahdb.org.uk/no-till
Depending on gly is the greatest challenge facing c a, don't have the answer, yet
 

Fred

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Mid Northants
The system has managed for the last few hundred years! No need to quote Dustbowls and declining soil organic matters to me ;)

What would you say the main barriers are to switching to DD @Fred ?
  • Fear of failure
  • Reduced yields, particularly in the first few years
  • Slugs
  • Grass weeds like sterile brome
  • Lack of knowledge
  • Increased crop disease from surface residues like fusarium, sclerotinia
  • Timing is everything
  • Dependency on glyphosate
  • Spending your cultivation savings on cover crops
  • Poor soil structure and compaction
  • Harder to adopt on very heavy warp clays and light sands that have no natural structure
https://www.ahdb.org.uk/no-till

I would say fear of losing yield , knowledge , rotation , slugs , blackgrass, timing of change in business sense, contract farming agreements and perception
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
I would say fear of losing yield , knowledge , rotation , slugs , blackgrass, timing of change in business sense, contract farming agreements and perception

CFAs would complicate it. The first thing an agent will want if you have lower cultivations costs is a lower contractor's first fee. There are plenty of no till contractors like @Clive who would be able to tell you more about the process. I guess a "standard tillage" base fee would be seen as a higher return for the contractor and more yield risk/additional VCs to the variable element of the agreement.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Its that time of year when I sit down and review costings.
Whilst I do that I ask several questions,
Can I do it better , cheaper , more efficiently , differently etc.

So my question is this ,

Those of you who have moved to a genuine direct drilling system have you actually
1 Saved money
2 Increased profit

The reason I ask is this, we direct drill OSR , then we have 2 passes before drilling wheat, Sumo , joker, drill)
and 1 before drilling beans (sumo trio)
So effectively 1 1/2 passes before drilling across the total acreage , all rolled after .

A lot of the direct drilling passes all involve either a straw rake , or cover crop seeding pass.inc covers

Assuming we spray , fertilize and harvest at the same cost, is direct drilling saving approx. £10-12 acre in establishment costs.
Which whilst is a substantial saving on a 1000 acres, is it a big enough saving to warrant investment in a new drill .

I understand direct drilling is more than just changing the drill and its a mindset thing with a change in rotation labour practices etc , but for those who have just changed a machine did it pay?

Those of you who changed complete systems , do you find management easier, and is your farming business more profitable ?

If it is, and I suppose this is what I am really trying to find out , is your new system Brexit proof in other words are you making enough profit before subsidy to make a living at todays prices .

Its a bit of a convoluted question ,

To answer you numbered points

1 yes
2 yes


Brexit proof ? well that depends on what Brexit actually end up being I guess. What I do know is I can't see how else to farm profitably under unless you have no rent / finance under any other arable system. If we had no sub we wouldn't go out pf business, 10 years ago we wouldn't have lasted 12 months without it !


I'm speaking a AHDB monitor farm tomorrow and have some costing comparisons I did earlier on my old min-till system vs zero till (5yr averages of both systems)- looking specifically at OSR profit before rent and finance the difference is a rather shocking 425% improvement !

Im also not sure why there is a perception that no-till means lower yields - its certainly not what I have seen and there is no logical reason that can't be managed correctly to make sure thats not the case

BUT ...................... you have to do it right, and that doesn't mean rushing out buying a new fancy drill and load of kit continuing to perform multiple passes to make it work ! you will not save money that way, it starts with a fundamental ground up change of farming system, rotation, nutrition, agronomy, labour and machinery profiles

Management is easier in some respects but harder in others, its certainly less physical work / time spent in cabs but there is a higher investment in management time and re educating yourself
 
Last edited:
Several , being a bit of a no-till tart , and yes all of my fears are always answered ,
However this isn't what I asked , does no-till actually save money and if so how much in £acre have you saved .

I answered you and told you you can save on cultivation costs immediatly as well as tractor hours and tractor hp. You then changed the goalposts and said you felt crops did better under cultivation which is a different debate to your question :p
 
Management is easier in some respects but harder in others, its certainly less physical work / time spent in cabs but there is a higher investment in managements time and re educating yourself

I have found initial management harder as I had a lot to learn but as experience goes on my management time is way less. Once a winter crop is up I barely need to look at it until March to decide a herbicide. Maybe OSR fungicide if I feel its necessary but no till really is very simple. And even after that fungal management is pretty predictable with a few tweaks to acknowledge the weather.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
I have found initial management harder as I had a lot to learn but as experience goes on my management time is way less. Once a winter crop is up I barely need to look at it until March to decide a herbicide. Maybe OSR fungicide if I feel its necessary but no till really is very simple. And even after that fungal management is pretty predictable with a few tweaks to acknowledge the weather.

I agree - was a lot more effort / stress and worry in the early years plus I spent a lot of time listening to speakers, reading, understanding and visiting others. These days it seems to kind of farm itself sometimes (although I have an excellent agronomist and great operators who have also educated themselves over the last few years !)
 
I agree - was a lot more effort / stress and worry in the early years plus I spent a lot of time listening to speakers, reading, understanding and visiting others. These days it seems to kind of farm itself sometimes (although I have an excellent agronomist and great operators who have also educated themselves over the last few years !)
but

I know I always say it but visiting others is the best thing you can do. You can then see even if they are happy would you be happy with what the same on your own farm. Thats where everyone is different in their expectations.
 

Fred

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Mid Northants
Ok lets take this further , I can make profit from wheat and OSR ,spring barley, spring oats & Linseed break even , beans lose money , are you making money from spring sown crops , I assume you are using overwintered covers
 

juke

Member
Location
DURHAM
Ok lets take this further , I can make profit from wheat and OSR ,spring barley, spring oats & Linseed break even , beans lose money , are you making money from spring sown crops , I assume you are using overwintered covers

Are beans losing you money via average yields or high input costs ? Do you attribute any of the increased yield from the first wheat to the beans ?
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Ok lets take this further , I can make profit from wheat and OSR ,spring barley, spring oats & Linseed break even , beans lose money , are you making money from spring sown crops , I assume you are using overwintered covers

40% of my cropping is winter beans and spring break crops so I had better be making money from them ! All the crops you mention should be making a profit

you're looking at it wrongly though - like most your (brainwashed by suppliers !) subconscious focus is on gross output and one years copping at a a time and not thinking about rotational margins and higher profits that can be achieved through a massively reduced fixed costs structure and lower input / lower risk approach
 

Farmer Roy

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
NSW, Newstralya
err, as far as I am concerned, zero till has many more advantages than just a simple "is it cheaper" question, as in the OP

it has nothing to do with buying a new planter or the countless "which drill" questions after every pic of a zero till crop . . .( NO ONE asks those sort of questions over here. We are spoilt for choice & have a plethora of manufactures, machines & aftermarket parts available, to buy or build any type of planter you may want. They all do a good job & yield differences are insignificant most of the time. The big differences are in durability, stubble handling - VERY important to us, ability to work in varying soil types & moisture levels, etc ). But many many thousands of hectares of zero till crops have been planted with home made or farmer modified machines . . .

it is a whole systems approach, almost "holistic" some might venture :whistle:;):cool:

the benefits are many & cumulative, over many years, but I realise they may be more obvious in my harsh, volatile & brittle environment, than in your soft mild one.

here - it is a NO BRAINER. Why wouldn't you zero till :scratchhead:
I don't for one moment think it is the "ultimate" farming system, but I am convinced it is the vital stepping stone to much more exciting regenerative & biologically sympathetic systems ahead
Eliminating tillage is vital . . .
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 79 42.0%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 35.1%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.0%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,290
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top