Does No-Till solve all our problems?

[SilliamWhale]

The problem is if we start using covers, starter fert, a bit of lime, trace elements etc etc every year to achieve the yield we got when ploughing and PH drilling the cost saving of DD will be more than wiped out.IF DD is better for the soil and soil life and therefore crops we should be able to use less of these things not more(at least after a couple of years)

If your getting good yields and improving yields then it shouldn't matter too much.

 

[Clive]

The problem is if we start using covers, starter fert, a bit of lime, trace elements etc etc every year to achieve the yield we got when ploughing and PH drilling the cost saving of DD will be more than wiped out.IF DD is better for the soil and soil life and therefore crops we should be able to use less of these things not more(at least after a couple of years)

im not sure the improvements from the inputs above are a result of zerotill, many of them would help crops grown under tillage systems as well - these inputs are not for me to maintain yield I had under tillage they are being done to improve it

This is a generalisation but I reckon zero till farmers tend to be more switched on re nutrition, maybe because they have more time to consider it ? or maybe because they quickly develop a greater appreciation of biology when they stop destroying it with tillage ?

cover crops, lime, trace element, Ca:Mg etc are not exclusive to zero till, they are something that done right will benefit any farming system

 

[Clive]

Well maybe yes. But would you test that with a foliar test beforehand to see if the plant is getting Ca?

A counter argument is sometimes there is a Calcium fetish perpetuated by Albrecht followers. There is often a lot of Ca in the ground!

I think trying to manipulate Ca:Mg in the soil is a bit futile - possible but a lifetimes of expensive work with compromised crops in the meantime while you get there !

For me (low Mg) its something best approached through the leaf probably however when correcting Ph etc Mag lime becomes the product of choice, but Ca may still be required

you could use leaf test for Ca but its a fair assumption that its going to be short


important thing that many don't do as far as I can tell is separate the task of neutralising soil Ph from you Mg or Ca requirement - as a result while neutralising they could actually be making things worse. Lime application is being oversimplified by men testing H content and then recommending Ca as the solution by default, its not the Ca that even does the neutralising its the carbonate bit as I understand things ?

 

[marco]

I think trying to manipulate Ca:Mg in the soil is a bit futile - possible but a lifetimes of expensive work with compromised crops in the meantime while you get there !

For me (low Mg) its something best approached through the leaf probably however when correcting Ph etc Mag lime becomes the product of choice, but Ca may still be required

you could use leaf test for Ca but its a fair assumption that its going to be short


important thing that many don't do as far as I can tell is separate the task of neutralising soil Ph from you Mg or Ca requirement - as a result while neutralising they could actually be making things worse. Lime application is being oversimplified by men testing H content and then recommending Ca as the solution by default, its not the Ca that even does the neutralising its the carbonate bit as I understand things ?

Acidity is the result of offtake of nutrients, when a nutrient is taken off a soil colloid its replaced by H, putting lime on to replace nutrients is not the answer.

 

[marco]

Jim, have you ever done an Albrecht soil test? Could your high mg status be sorted with a few tonnes of CA lime per acre?

 

[Gilchro]

Acidity is the result of offtake of nutrients, when a nutrient is taken off a soil colloid its replaced by H, putting lime on to replace nutrients is not the answer.

But what Clive says makes sense here.

The carbonate binds to the hydrogen and washes out. This leaves free bases.

What then attaches to the bases depends on what you have applied/what is available, be that Ca, Mg, K or even Na.

 

[franklin]

The reading that I've done fairly clearly suggests that no-till on soils which are poorly structured / not draining properly is environmentally more damaging than cultivating to provide temporary drainage if you get increased incidences of anaerobic conditions and therefore higher N20 losses, lower biological activity and reduced yields.

Drainage should be #1 thing to get right before doing any type of arable farming.

 

[Simon Chiles]

I was talking to Steve Townsend yesterday and he is of the opinion we should be applying a routine amount of Ca every year regardless of pH but as an essential plant and biological nutrition, this despite our soils base saturation being Ca dominated.

I reckon there are some massive myths surrounding how we all use lime in ag - it's a valuable product but its use and role is seriously over simplified in it's consideration as simply a neutralising product when I think it is probably so much more than that

He's been listening to Richard Harding or vice versa. I agree so, because at the moment we are still on granular fert, I always use CAN and have done for years.

I have had some strange soil analysis since dd'ing one field came back as pH 4, as it was pH 6.5 only a few years before I ignored it and it went on to grow a reasonable crop of peas afterwards without any lime.
I think the decomposing vegetation on the surface produces acids in the top inch of soil, lots of our fields have moss growing on the surface and this affects the soil samples. I think that for dd soils it would be more important to take a deeper sample for analysis.

 

[Steevo]

Drainage should be #1 thing to get right before doing any type of arable farming.

Unfortunately it's also one of the most expensive.....and landlords aren't keen to invest in it either.

 

[dug]

Edit : referring to Statics drainage comment.

I couldn't agree more with this and Feldspar's post previously. Obviously for those on free draining soil types or low rainfall regions it is not relevant, however to minimise the impact of crap weather (and that includes a dry period after a wet predrilling period) getting drainage sorted is crucial.

There is no doubt that beginning DD from a degraded soil position on the fine textured soils is particularly tough and tbh I feel often careful integration of tillage (perhaps some form of reduced till and preferably not total inversion) with no till in the rotation in order to move forward positively and profitably is best.

I do not see any point in strictly drilling a crop by no till into a soil condition that is not suitable just because you want to 'start the soil improvement process' or however you want to put it.

 

[Feldspar]

This year has been a good year to demonstrate why just selling all your tillage kit and leaving yourself with a no-till drill before harvest has even started can catch you out. At the start of harvest the soil was dry and the combines were leaving very little mark. Direct drilled rape has come up extremely evenly with little signs of compaction from harvest traffic. Early combined wheat fields also were harvested with little impact. As a result I have now one more farm where every field is now in a good state and is fine to continue with direct drilling.

Fast forward to the beginning of September though and things have changed a lot. We were harvesting with two combines, one of which is smaller, GPS not being used, meaning a lot of harvest traffic. Also, a lot of rain has fallen since early August and many of the remaining fields had been ploughed the previous year meaning they do not bear the traffic as well; this means that these fields are really not in a very friendly state to direct drill. They're rutted and compacted where the harvest traffic has been and these areas are very slow to dry. Problem is now it's too late to plough and get a seedbed for autumn crops so we're committed. If it stays dry for a week or two the strip till drills will deal better with the sort of situation than a no-till drill. If we get a lot more rain they may be worse / no better.

 

[Cow1]

Drainage should be #1 thing to get right before doing any type of arable farming.

This has hit the nail squarely on the head.

I, like I suspect a lot of other decision makers running farms have benefited from the previous generations hard work installing modern drainage systems.

I started farming with all this work having been done and never gave any thought as to what was underneath the ground and the impact this had on improving the productive capacity of the soil. However my Dad knew where every drain, ditch and outfall went and ran.

It's only since he passed away that I started to understand drainage importance and maintenance.

In addition, if you have soils suitable at depth, don't under estimate the value of mole ploughing. I had a field that always laid wet and was in permanent grass that had no modern drainage system but a ditch running alongside it. The soil underneath was mottled, grey and lifeless mainly due to the fact that I had grazed it too much in the winter when it was wet.

I moled part of it before stubble turnips before an intended re seed. This worked so well I tried a punt running it as arable. The difference in crop between the moled and non moled ground was staggering. You wouldn't recognise the soil compared to how it was previously.

In the last three years I have done far more mole ploughing than sub soiling.
It's a slow job but well worth the time and effort.

One last piece of advice, if you have an older member of the family that knows how your farms drainage system works, take a day or two out this winter to get familiar with outfalls, ditches etc. You never know when this knowledge will be taken away from you.

 

[ajd132]

When I was in Czech with MH earlier this year he said one of his main problems was nice. We looked in all types of fields and there was holes everywhere. I think this is exacerbated by zero till.

 

[Louis Mc]

When I was in Czech with MH earlier this year he said one of his main problems was nice. We looked in all types of fields and there was holes everywhere. I think this is exacerbated by zero till.

cats the obvious solution surely.....

 

[james7230]

So would people say that some subsoiling to remove areas of compaction would be essential. I was thinking of using a grassland subsoiler to remove some combine wheelinggs and headlands etc. Or would the disturbance from this be more harm than good, I.e. By damaging the soil biology?

 

[Douglasmn]

When I was in Czech with MH earlier this year he said one of his main problems was nice. We looked in all types of fields and there was holes everywhere. I think this is exacerbated by zero till.

I have often wondered how the long term no tillers get around this problem. Would like to know if anyone can tell me? Wouldn't be so bothered about slugs in no till but mice and rats yes. Cut a field yesterday(ploughed and combi drilled, very high yielding and spotlessly clean) and saw two rats run out from the crop. Can't help think that if no big, heavy worm-killing-and-everything-else cultivators go through that field then surely the rats will just multiply in numbers very quickly. Longest cropped fields un ploughed here is about 4 years and admittedly I never noticed any problems, but surely must be a haven for them.

 

[Baling Hay]

I have often wondered how the long term no tillers get around this problem. Would like to know if anyone can tell me? Wouldn't be so bothered about slugs in no till but mice and rats yes. Cut a field yesterday(ploughed and combi drilled, very high yielding and spotlessly clean) and saw two rats run out from the crop. Can't help think that if no big, heavy worm-killing-and-everything-else cultivators go through that field then surely the rats will just multiply in numbers very quickly. Longest cropped fields un ploughed here is about 4 years and admittedly I never noticed any problems, but surely must be a haven for them.

I would hate that!!! Horrible things

 

[York]

I have often wondered how the long term no tillers get around this problem. Would like to know if anyone can tell me? Wouldn't be so bothered about slugs in no till but mice and rats yes. Cut a field yesterday(ploughed and combi drilled, very high yielding and spotlessly clean) and saw two rats run out from the crop. Can't help think that if no big, heavy worm-killing-and-everything-else cultivators go through that field then surely the rats will just multiply in numbers very quickly. Longest cropped fields un ploughed here is about 4 years and admittedly I never noticed any problems, but surely must be a haven for them.

i only can tell you that NT doesn't create more mice. The only thing is that the problems of mice are starting earlier, like 1 to 2 month. In the end we have regions where they suffer yield losses of up to 50% in wheat due to mice.
Broadcasting of mice bait is prohibited nowadays. Claydon are selling a "mice plow" kit over here.
So, what is the conclusion? keep a diverse landscape with diverse wildlife and not this wheat - rape mono-cultures for dozens of km / ml without a hedge of tree row in-between.
York-Th.

 

[rob1]

Another plus for no till, a big boon for barn owls as plenty of food for them

 

[Clive]

Another plus for no till, a big boon for barn owls as plenty of food for them

i've not noticed a mice problem yet but we do seem to have a lot more birds of prey around the farm these days