Does the hill shepherd get a fair share of the pie?

Frank-the-Wool

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
East Sussex
I don't believe the Hill shepherd does get a fair deal, but you could also say the same for all the store lamb producers over the last few years. I would guess that far more than 50% of farmers have not benefitted at all from the recent higher prices as most would have sold out by the end of October.
Unless they have kept their own replacements they are going to struggle to afford replacements this coming Autumn.
There are some large sheep farms in the south and east who have low input sheep and no staff and just sell everything as stores from August through to November. Simple systems, mostly based on Romney or Romney cross, April lambing on all grass, lambing % under 150%.
The last few years it has only just worked so they will be hoping this new price level will be maintained and stores will be £80 plus!
 

Anymulewilldo

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cheshire
Bought a batch of broker draft ewes warranted in the bag. Shearers found 2 wethers when pre lamb shearing. 1 was dog food that night (wouldn’t stay in the pen), the other one turned out with a big red W on each side. And never seen again 😂
Bought some Cheviot wether shearlings from Dingwall this time. Looked ideal for home freezer sheep! They stayed at home a week then all buggered off! Was 3 months before they turned up again. They all went a little ride out when I caught the swines! Taste beautiful though!
 

Anymulewilldo

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cheshire
I don't believe the Hill shepherd does get a fair deal, but you could also say the same for all the store lamb producers over the last few years. I would guess that far more than 50% of farmers have not benefitted at all from the recent higher prices as most would have sold out by the end of October.
Unless they have kept their own replacements they are going to struggle to afford replacements this coming Autumn.
There are some large sheep farms in the south and east who have low input sheep and no staff and just sell everything as stores from August through to November. Simple systems, mostly based on Romney or Romney cross, April lambing on all grass, lambing % under 150%.
The last few years it has only just worked so they will be hoping this new price level will be maintained and stores will be £80 plus!
Store prices were good way before October? They started good this year and got better and better all through. If a shepherd was running a big low input system with a low % in the south where the weather is good how can they complain at the return for the stores? It’s not the same as a hill shepherd at all, they are in a race with the winter too get sheep away from the farm. Or finish their own away or on hard feed.
TBH if what you quote has only just been working this last few years I’d ask myself why and change the system too produce either more lambs or a more saleable type of lamb?
 

LTH

Member
Livestock Farmer
I don't believe the Hill shepherd does get a fair deal, but you could also say the same for all the store lamb producers over the last few years. I would guess that far more than 50% of farmers have not benefitted at all from the recent higher prices as most would have sold out by the end of October.
Unless they have kept their own replacements they are going to struggle to afford replacements this coming Autumn.
There are some large sheep farms in the south and east who have low input sheep and no staff and just sell everything as stores from August through to November. Simple systems, mostly based on Romney or Romney cross, April lambing on all grass, lambing % under 150%.
The last few years it has only just worked so they will be hoping this new price level will be maintained and stores will be £80 plus!
Fat lambs have been £90 all summer which is a good 10 quid up on usual so stores have been good as well I don’t think anyone can really complain at this years prices but on a normal year hill farmers don’t get the fair share just because of the market volatility.
 

Frank-the-Wool

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
East Sussex
Store prices were good way before October? They started good this year and got better and better all through. If a shepherd was running a big low input system with a low % in the south where the weather is good how can they complain at the return for the stores? It’s not the same as a hill shepherd at all, they are in a race with the winter too get sheep away from the farm. Or finish their own away or on hard feed.
TBH if what you quote has only just been working this last few years I’d ask myself why and change the system too produce either more lambs or a more saleable type of lamb?

Store prices this year were a lot better than the previous couple of years, but in reality were only up a tenner which seemed a great improvement.
These store lamb systems work by having very low costs. They have no staff and just keep it simple, but they now need better than £90.00 output per ewe to make it work.
Always a race down here to beat the summer drought before the hard winter sets in.
 

Anymulewilldo

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cheshire
It matters because if it wasn’t coming from government grants it wouldn’t be coming from anywhere, as you and I, who have both spent a fair bit of time fencing, know.
Yep. When this grant ends there will be a lean spell. Then they will pay you too buy a chainsaw and set too and clear all the trees again to make way for food production! You couldn’t make it up if you tried! 😁
 

Guleesh

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Isle of Skye
It matters because if it wasn’t coming from government grants it wouldn’t be coming from anywhere, as you and I, who have both spent a fair bit of time fencing, know.

TBH It's not my experience, Some of it comes from grants, but not all of it.

I've fenced for plenty folk over the years who weren't eligible for grants and also for plenty private owners of land and forestry, not to mention all the domestic work. When I started out, I was years working on smaller jobs for mostly non agricultural customers. The higher grants available to 'young farmers' and townships in recent years have obviously drastically increased the % of grant work.

Personally, I don't think paying for replacing privately owned and perfectly serviceable fences, with brand new ones that will likely rot faster than the existing one is good value for money for the taxpayer. You and I both know how often this is done and also that it's rarely done by people who pay for their fence out of their own pocket.

Anyway, am I supposed to be grateful to the government for having had the opportunity of competing with other contractors to win contracts for hard manual labour?
 

Macsky

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Highland
TBH It's not my experience, Some of it comes from grants, but not all of it.

I've fenced for plenty folk over the years who weren't eligible for grants and also for plenty private owners of land and forestry, not to mention all the domestic work. When I started out, I was years working on smaller jobs for mostly non agricultural customers. The higher grants available to 'young farmers' and townships in recent years have obviously drastically increased the % of grant work.

Personally, I don't think paying for replacing privately owned and perfectly serviceable fences, with brand new ones that will likely rot faster than the existing one is good value for money for the taxpayer. You and I both know how often this is done and also that it's rarely done by people who pay for their fence out of their own pocket.

Anyway, am I supposed to be grateful to the government for having had the opportunity of competing with other contractors to win contracts for hard manual labour?
My experience differs. A lot of the fencing I did was grant funded, and therefor I was more or less guaranteed payment for it, next to none of it involved replacing perfectly serviceable fencing, that’s not really allowed anyway.

The value to the taxpayer comes in the form of affordable and dependable food supplies, and keeps cash flowing through other associated businesses and their employees, such as, in the case of fencing, forestry harvesters/sawmills/wire & hardware manufacturers/hauliers/merchants.......

I am very grateful for the funding that has been available, and am only amazed and frustrated that not more use of it has been made, especially where townships have been eligible for 80%+ funding, a far cry for how they were treated in the not too distant past!
(Currently reading James Hunter’s ‘The Making of the Crofting Community’)

I have always tried to avoid criticism/jealousy of those who seem particularly able to ‘play the system’, as, either way,it has kept money coming into the Highlands, where goodness knows it isn’t too easy to come by!
 

Guleesh

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Isle of Skye
My experience differs. A lot of the fencing I did was grant funded, and therefor I was more or less guaranteed payment for it, next to none of it involved replacing perfectly serviceable fencing, that’s not really allowed anyway.

The value to the taxpayer comes in the form of affordable and dependable food supplies, and keeps cash flowing through other associated businesses and their employees, such as, in the case of fencing, forestry harvesters/sawmills/wire & hardware manufacturers/hauliers/merchants.......

I am very grateful for the funding that has been available, and am only amazed and frustrated that not more use of it has been made, especially where townships have been eligible for 80%+ funding, a far cry for how they were treated in the not too distant past!
(Currently reading James Hunter’s ‘The Making of the Crofting Community’)

I have always tried to avoid criticism/jealousy of those who seem particularly able to ‘play the system’, as, either way,it has kept money coming into the Highlands, where goodness knows it isn’t too easy to come by!

I think we've been through this before, and my position remains unchanged. I don't want to be a charity case and don't like the idea of the Highlands being a charity case, in need of consistent funding from the rest of UK taxpayers. It's not the fault of taxpayers elsewhere that we want to live here. I don't want to live at the expense of others, I'd rather contribute to society than take from it.

How crofters were treated in the not too distant past is irrelevant, we live in the present, taking more than our share today doesn't remedy anything. History owes us nothing.

I'm not trying to criticise others and I'm certainly not jealous of those who play the system, I am however very critical of that system, and if folk get upset or defensive by me pointing out the flaws, that's their problem.

As I've said before, if improvements, such as fencing, are worth making then it is worth the business owner investing in them, they will see a return on their investment. If improvements will not pay for themselves then it isn't ok to use taxpayers money.
 
To be fair to the mule, and I might get shouted at by the more progressive guys on here, or those who love a sound bite straight out of the same book everyone seems to have read 😂, I would suggest that some of the very best sheep in the country and by that I mean most profitable, would be mules. Some of the worst also. There are plenty of folk running outdoor lambing, flying mule flocks, grass fed etc and banging out a lot of cracking lambs. There are others housing on slats and feeding home ration and turning out for lambing, and various other different ways that people are probably making a lot of money farming mules without subs or similar. The mules biggest problem is inconsistency, inability to close a flock to a certain extent and the fact it’s hugely popular so farmed by all manner of life forms, good and bad. I lamb outside, keep exlana ewes, forage based etc. But I’m not naive enough to think I am the only one who is right and the only one making any money out of sheep.

I’ll probably get lynched by a gang of men in Canterbury shorts, ridge lines and deer boots, riding four wheelers with poly pipe on the front, swinging a plate meter, with heading dig in tow ......

😉
 

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
I think we've been through this before, and my position remains unchanged. I don't want to be a charity case and don't like the idea of the Highlands being a charity case, in need of consistent funding from the rest of UK taxpayers. It's not the fault of taxpayers elsewhere that we want to live here. I don't want to live at the expense of others, I'd rather contribute to society than take from it.

How crofters were treated in the not too distant past is irrelevant, we live in the present, taking more than our share today doesn't remedy anything. History owes us nothing.

I'm not trying to criticise others and I'm certainly not jealous of those who play the system, I am however very critical of that system, and if folk get upset or defensive by me pointing out the flaws, that's their problem.

As I've said before, if improvements, such as fencing, are worth making then it is worth the business owner investing in them, they will see a return on their investment. If improvements will not pay for themselves then it isn't ok to use taxpayers money.
Your contribution to society is abundant food
 
No you definitely do not.
The real trade for sheep is out of the months you are selling them and includes feeding them and all the rest that goes with it.
The text book hill farm idea went out of the window with me for as long ago as I can remember.
This only applies to the last few years though not forever
The truth of the matter is you can’t have it all ways sorry for saying that but that’s how it is.
 

Macsky

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Highland
I think we've been through this before, and my position remains unchanged. I don't want to be a charity case and don't like the idea of the Highlands being a charity case, in need of consistent funding from the rest of UK taxpayers. It's not the fault of taxpayers elsewhere that we want to live here. I don't want to live at the expense of others, I'd rather contribute to society than take from it.

How crofters were treated in the not too distant past is irrelevant, we live in the present, taking more than our share today doesn't remedy anything. History owes us nothing.

I'm not trying to criticise others and I'm certainly not jealous of those who play the system, I am however very critical of that system, and if folk get upset or defensive by me pointing out the flaws, that's their problem.

As I've said before, if improvements, such as fencing, are worth making then it is worth the business owner investing in them, they will see a return on their investment. If improvements will not pay for themselves then it isn't ok to use taxpayers money.

The history of crofting, like all history, is very relevant.

Crofts were specifically designed, at a time when folk were an awful lot more self sufficient than today, to be too small to be profitable to ensure the proprietors of an ample and cheap labour supply for the very profitable kelp harvest. If they weren’t profitable then, they certainly won’t be today, so if profitability is your only measure, what should be done? Punt out the unprofitable crofters? Then who gets the land? I’ll give you a clue, this has happened before! It certainly wouldn’t be the likes of us.

To say that history owes us nothing makes a mockery of the very high proportion of young men that left the area, never to return, to fight for the UK in various wars. Your ideas of ‘not wanting to be a charity case’ are just foolish pride, if you think the Highlands is in receipt than more of its share in subsidies, then go for a long drive, I doubt you’ll find many places with worse transport links and infrastructure.

The local library/swimming pool/sports facilities would never pay for themselves, should funding be axed for the likes of them? What about the NHS? These are essential services, but not as essential as food production.

I’m not saying that there aren’t any flaws in the system, or that it couldn’t be improved, and don’t worry, I’m certainly not getting upset, but I think looking at the bigger picture, the subsidies and grants available do an awful lot more good than harm, they enable the smaller producer to exist alongside the larger, and, to address the OP’s original question, they allow the hill shepherd to continue with a smaller slice of the pie, ensuring that the forwarders/finishers make enough from the job to come back for more next year.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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