Dr Elaine Ingham/compost

[Ffermer Bach]

I think that's why the nice kiwi fella from Dorset said it wasn't efficient and he makes compost tea. But then confusion reigns as folk say spread 10t/ha and others 1t/ha. Nae idea what the right thing is but some definitely better than nowt.

what sort of sprayer did he use? As an organic stock farmer I have never used a sprayer, so know naff all about them.

 

[scotston]

he made his own from a honda 'flood' pump and some low pressure nozzles imported from NZ.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

You're a gentleman! What a service. I did type in the same into the search and broadly came out with similar results so I'll get on with looking through and finding some nuggets. But yes hopefully Simon and the rest of the hordes can assure me she isn't nuts...

well, we've stopped using for years being organic but we still get derogations, based on chemical analysis, to apply Boron, sulphate of potash etc. I think if I could prove that the number one fundamental that is taught, lime, is not required, that would shake the foundations? We still use plenty of lime but I'm not sure if it really makes a huge difference in our already low input system. I'm just looking to try and see how far organic can go. And no inputs, they bugger up profit way before crap yields.

I only applied lime this year as I wanted to burn down 7ha and drill new grass in - AFAIK this place has had nothing applied in "usual forms" for going on 30 years

Elaine and Christine Jones have both been here, before our time though

I certainly have no plan to spread lime or fert, and my day job is spreading lime and fert!

 

[hollister]

I think that's why the nice kiwi fella from Dorset said it wasn't efficient and he makes compost tea. But then confusion reigns as folk say spread 10t/ha and others 1t/ha. Nae idea what the right thing is but some definitely better than nowt.

Depends on the quality of the compost?

 

[Barleycorn]

The Menart is old and a bit temperamental, but does a good job when it's going.

We spread 5 tons / acre.

 

[scotston]

I only applied lime this year as I wanted to burn down 7ha and drill new grass in - AFAIK this place has had nothing applied in "usual forms" for going on 30 years

Elaine and Christine Jones have both been here, before our time though

I certainly have no plan to spread lime or fert, and my day job is spreading lime and fert!

and the reason for no plan to spread lime - because you don't need to - that goes against basic conventions of farming?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

and the reason for no plan to spread lime - because you don't need to - that goes against basic conventions of farming?

I suppose it does - putting lime on is really only the convention in some countries TBH

not saying "never", just the pH corrected itself and there are better ways to get Ca cycling

 

[ShooTa]

what sort of sprayer did he use? As an organic stock farmer I have never used a sprayer, so know naff all about them.

section on pumps/nozzles lasts until 46mins..
https://www.instagram.com/erth_farmer/ - should you want to ask him what its called.

 

[scotston]

I suppose it does - putting lime on is really only the convention in some countries TBH

not saying "never", just the pH corrected itself and there are better ways to get Ca cycling

how many people have used the phrase 'the pH corrected itself'? This is exactly what I'm beginning to wonder about our 'modern' version of farming.

Last week I paid a South African fellow, who describes himself as an organic consultant, who is also an Ingham enthusiast to come and chat about compost/compost tea and take some soil samples for him to complete a microscopy analysis. He was terrific, enthusiastic and I only wish he wasn't emigrating to Canada next week to be with his family. We have settled on a plan to make both organic matter based compost from our cattle, poultry and woodchip components as well as what else we have. We will also make what he calls a 'biologically complete' compost tea to spray on the whole farm every month or thereabouts.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I suppose it does - putting lime on is really only the convention in some countries TBH

not saying "never", just the pH corrected itself and there are better ways to get Ca cycling

Except pH isn't about calcium

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Except pH isn't about calcium

No! And we find way better ways to get the calcium trickling into the thing, and better ways to feed the thing so it can manage it's own belly

 

[Kiwi Pete]

how many people have used the phrase 'the pH corrected itself'? This is exactly what I'm beginning to wonder about our 'modern' version of farming.

Last week I paid a South African fellow, who describes himself as an organic consultant, who is also an Ingham enthusiast to come and chat about compost/compost tea and take some soil samples for him to complete a microscopy analysis. He was terrific, enthusiastic and I only wish he wasn't emigrating to Canada next week to be with his family. We have settled on a plan to make both organic matter based compost from our cattle, poultry and woodchip components as well as what else we have. We will also make what he calls a 'biologically complete' compost tea to spray on the whole farm every month or thereabouts.

What we do isn't really farming, we get a bunch of calves and graze them for a year and get another batch.
It's possibly distinct by the lack of input/output that drives most business?

I think in our context we can change the diet of the soil organism quite a bit by the way we graze, eg if we facilitate a longer grazing rotation then there's more plant expression, as with our cattle the ultimate way of being is "fat and happy"

if we can shift the "age" of the plants from juvenile grass that feeds sugar, to a mature plant that feeds sugars and lipids, then I believe that there has to be more toothpaste in that tube than leaving lots of residue (which might be potentially hydrogen) for the soil to deal with.

We do that too, but I think it is the complex carbon fraction that drives the ability for the soil to be healthy despite what we do to stress her

 

[Treg]

sorry, I maybe wasn't clear, but in the other thread you redirected me to, you said "Just for reference my cutting ground gets 3/ 4 tonnes of compost and 40 kgs of AN fertilizer". This isn't exactly what she meant? She said you need to measure the existing biology in your soil, measure the biology in your compost and then square the circle. She definitely doesn't like adding AN even though you're not adding a lot. Her point and really the extreme point I want to explore here is that she believes all the minerals are available in the soil; just needs good and balanced biology to realise it. This is contrary to all 'normal' agriculture which is based on the premise that you need to add back what you have removed. So who follows this principle and gets 2 or 3t/ac barley, wheat etc - Does it bloody work or is it 'snake oil'?

Think Nicole Masters book , For the love of soil , would probably benefit you.
I would say Kung Fu panda mite be worth watching as well ( turn away anyone who hasn't seen it ) .... there is no magic ingredients!
I'm not keen on measuring as your soil is always changing on it's own & pH changes throughout the year with no inputs , so I think your asking does this work ?
It's a journey, I think when you realise there's more to growing stuff than chucking on NPK you become conscious of alternatives, most of which are about feeding the biology rather than a chemical change to the soil.
Biology in the soil doesn't want large rates of inputs they want the right environment to thrive and to be stimulated, compost is a very good way of doing this.
I know what your trying to say about " normal " agriculture but really the only ones pushing that are the chemical companies and really is putting anything oil based on your land really a good thing?

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Think Nicole Masters book , For the love of soil , would probably benefit you.
I would say Kung Fu panda mite be worth watching as well ( turn away anyone who hasn't seen it ) .... there is no magic ingredients!
I'm not keen on measuring as your soil is always changing on it's own & pH changes throughout the year with no inputs , so I think your asking does this work ?
It's a journey, I think when you realise there's more to growing stuff than chucking on NPK you become conscious of alternatives, most of which are about feeding the biology rather than a chemical change to the soil.
Biology in the soil doesn't want large rates of inputs they want the right environment to thrive and to be stimulated, compost is a very good way of doing this.
I know what your trying to say about " normal " agriculture but really the only ones pushing that are the chemical companies and really is putting anything oil based on your land really a good thing?

I would add, that just because the consensus is one thing, that does not mean that it could not be wrong! Yes, everyone (especially those who make and sell NPK)say it is vital, but we need to have an open mind to different ideas. Just think about the Cholera epidemic in London, everyone knew it was spread by miasma except the Doctor who removed the handle of the water pump!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak
Or the doctor who blamed deaths in childbirth on Doctors not washing their hands, he was pilloried by his colleagues and tricked into being put in an asylum where he was beaten and died.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

 

[Daniel Tyrkiel]

I can only say watch this space. We're a UK company backed by Dr. Ingham and advised on a weekly basis - we chat every Friday. We're making compost by hand at the moment as part of our RandD (over 20 piles this year to date) and have achieved fungal biomass in our compost higher than most that we have seen. We keep a record of your best compost samples for fun, but we don't include our own numbers as it would be unfair We also run weekly drop in sessions for early adopters like you where we can help answer your questions on composting. You can view previous sessions here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCogon8wegEazhcqcny25fbQ/videos and if you want in, pm me please with your email.
We've had a successful barley trial this year (not super duper fantastic, but gives us a step to go up from), and you can read the results here: https://soilecologylab.co.uk/try-it-out-on-your-land/
If you'd like to learn microscopy we can help with that too, or you can send us samples and we do that for you. It's especially useful when you find or make some compost and want to know if there's any biology in it. Sending a sample of your soil only makes sense if you follow it up with an application of microbes and want to check if they'd established. Other than that, you will have bacteria and nothing else. I'll happily take your money for a telepathic assessment of your soil or you can skip that and save yourself the cash. We're here to help and to learn. We're hoping that Sheffield Uni will be able to give us a hand with DNA analysis and controlled trials. It's going to be another two years I think minimum before we'll have a good set of answers. You can work with us now though, because now finally we have material to work with, and previously a soil food web rich material was simply unobtanium in the UK. We're located on an arable farm in Hampshire and have access to all sorts of material for composting because the farm also runs a green waste site.
A little bit about me - my name is Daniel and I'm a recovering townie, so I'm not here to lecture you - I'm in no position to do that. Please help me understand your problems, and perhaps together we'll be able to crack this one. Thank you!

 

[Rob Garrett]

I can only say watch this space. We're a UK company backed by Dr. Ingham and advised on a weekly basis - we chat every Friday. We're making compost by hand at the moment as part of our RandD (over 20 piles this year to date) and have achieved fungal biomass in our compost higher than most that we have seen. We keep a record of your best compost samples for fun, but we don't include our own numbers as it would be unfair We also run weekly drop in sessions for early adopters like you where we can help answer your questions on composting. You can view previous sessions here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCogon8wegEazhcqcny25fbQ/videos and if you want in, pm me please with your email.
We've had a successful barley trial this year (not super duper fantastic, but gives us a step to go up from), and you can read the results here: https://soilecologylab.co.uk/try-it-out-on-your-land/
If you'd like to learn microscopy we can help with that too, or you can send us samples and we do that for you. It's especially useful when you find or make some compost and want to know if there's any biology in it. Sending a sample of your soil only makes sense if you follow it up with an application of microbes and want to check if they'd established. Other than that, you will have bacteria and nothing else. I'll happily take your money for a telepathic assessment of your soil or you can skip that and save yourself the cash. We're here to help and to learn. We're hoping that Sheffield Uni will be able to give us a hand with DNA analysis and controlled trials. It's going to be another two years I think minimum before we'll have a good set of answers. You can work with us now though, because now finally we have material to work with, and previously a soil food web rich material was simply unobtanium in the UK. We're located on an arable farm in Hampshire and have access to all sorts of material for composting because the farm also runs a green waste site.
A little bit about me - my name is Daniel and I'm a recovering townie, so I'm not here to lecture you - I'm in no position to do that. Please help me understand your problems, and perhaps together we'll be able to crack this one. Thank you!


View attachment 1000615

Now then Daniel, great post, thanks for driving in. You could be the person to answer a small technical question that is bugging me;

"What do I look for to see when my fungal compost is ready i.e when the fungi run out of food, go into spore mode & hunker down until the next meal?"

 

[Daniel Tyrkiel]

Hi Rob. There is an assumption in the question: "my compost is ready when the fungi run out of food"

We work on a different assumption. We're looking for growing out the fungi, but also the protozoa and the nematodes. We don't necessarily aim to have all of them in one pile, although it's possible, but I can tell you that you can have protozoa in 48 hours, nematodes in a month, and fungi in about three.

For the signs we use the microscope and a spreadsheet that allows us to count them, and we aim to grow out as much fungi as we can. We don't wait for them to go to sleep or make spores. We are just after the hyphae, and contrary to popular belief, we have piles 18 months old with lots of healthy hyphae, with no signs of slowing down.

On the table above you will find two more examples which may throw you off a bit (sorry, just the nature of working with nature...). Number three from the top is a material Niels found in a wood mill, which was 14 years old. Yes, it had plenty of spores, but it had a ton of healthy hyphae.

On the other hand, number three from the bottom is a 14 month JS pile with no spores and no fungi.

In general, time and carbon are the two elements that give you the best chance of getting a fungal compost, but there are ways to have some more control.

Your compost is ready to use when the temperature has gone down to ambient. Whether or not you have a good fungal population is another story.

 

[Rob Garrett]

Hi Rob. There is an assumption in the question: "my compost is ready when the fungi run out of food"

We work on a different assumption. We're looking for growing out the fungi, but also the protozoa and the nematodes. We don't necessarily aim to have all of them in one pile, although it's possible, but I can tell you that you can have protozoa in 48 hours, nematodes in a month, and fungi in about three.

For the signs we use the microscope and a spreadsheet that allows us to count them, and we aim to grow out as much fungi as we can. We don't wait for them to go to sleep or make spores. We are just after the hyphae, and contrary to popular belief, we have piles 18 months old with lots of healthy hyphae, with no signs of slowing down.

On the table above you will find two more examples which may throw you off a bit (sorry, just the nature of working with nature...). Number three from the top is a material Niels found in a wood mill, which was 14 years old. Yes, it had plenty of spores, but it had a ton of healthy hyphae.

On the other hand, number three from the bottom is a 14 month JS pile with no spores and no fungi.

In general, time and carbon are the two elements that give you the best chance of getting a fungal compost, but there are ways to have some more control.

Your compost is ready to use when the temperature has gone down to ambient. Whether or not you have a good fungal population is another story.

That's interesting, thank you. Would the "JS" initials be reference to Johnson Su bioreactor methods?

I am thinking that our current farming system/soil is bacterial dominant and would benefit from high fungal compost/tea (along with all the other stuff; legumes leys & livestock in the rotation, polycroping, reduced bag fet & chem etc). The challenge is making it in an efficient way, I like the Johnson Su method, not turning fungal compost has got to be a no brainer.

 

[Daniel Tyrkiel]

Hi Rob, yes about the JS.

Getting the fungal component up is a challenge, but I believe that we can help.

We have a weekly drop in session every Wednesday for farmers who want to ask us questions about this. It's 4.30pm. If you message me your email I can send you the invite.

These sessions are recorded, and you can view them here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCogon8wegEazhcqcny25fbQ/videos

We have a product now that can start your pile with beneficial fungi, and we'll soon be offering a nutrient mix that in our early tests showed promise to support the development of beneficial fungi.

Let me know how I can help.

 

[Surgery]

i Can’t grasp why all this is such big news , muck , compost etc , it has been used by many for centuries on land and gardens.