Hang on. The conversation is a bit more nuanced than that. On the one hand I can easily see that paying $5k is ludicrous when all we're doing is creating a big pile of shite. But on the other, the entire conversation is about getting the 'right' biology in the soil, not the wrong. It's about understanding exactly what that means. Aerobic not anaerobic. Carbon to nitrogen ratio. I already add FYM but it hasn't got my soil in the correct succession place of fungal to bacteria ratio of 1. It's around 0.5, bacterially dominated. The reason I know - microscope. The art of compost making, as proved above with Simon correcting Treg, is about knowing not thinking you know. And I know I don't know. But I would like to know....
Dr Elaine Ingham/compost
- Thread starter scotston
- Start date
Soil testing measures soil chemistry, not biology. If you believe Sparkes 2003 then we don't need to measure the chemistry as it's already there, in spades. If you believe the good doctor then we need the right biology to allow the plants to access these 'infinitely' available minerals. The grail that I'm seeking is no inputs, even organically, but getting year on year yield gains and storing carbon at the same time.
- Location
- Derbyshire UK
In situ composting?
SilliamWhale
Member
Crack on. But I don't think you will find the holy grail
- Location
- Derbyshire UK
Sparks 2003?
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Yes, as in using planned grazing to grow litter in the base of the plants, and crushing it down via high impact grazing
no transport and less compaction than 'normal' grazing practices, so each hour's labour achieves a huge amount of benefit
as @SilliamWhale says it still isn't really the holy grail, input-output agriculture requires inputs, we more view our grazing animals as "wildlife" as we don't own them - they arrive, cycle plants back into the soil, and then replace themselves with smaller ones.
We are paid "on time", as opposed to being paid "for tonnes of product" which makes it a much different paradigm, the obvious thing is that we aren't removing matter from the landscape for a year or two and then trucking it back
- Location
- Isle of Skye
What do you do with all those leftover materials that aren't going to be needed for the perpetual motion compost recipe? I suppose once soil perfection is achieved then you wouldn't want to destroy the balance with inferior compost made from leftovers?
The "matter" is walking of you land. You can't get owt for nowt.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Surely the sheep are bigger when they leave?
Elaine Ingham - Oxford Keynote, 2014.pptx
1 Life in the Soil Elaine Ingham, B.A., M.S., Ph.D. President, Soil Foodweb Inc. [email protected]
docs.google.com
This is the powerpoint ( I realise I've attached it twice) that goes with the Youtube video of Elaine at the Real Farming Conference :
- Location
- Derbyshire UK
Elaine Ingham - Oxford Keynote, 2014.pptx
1 Life in the Soil Elaine Ingham, B.A., M.S., Ph.D. President, Soil Foodweb Inc. [email protected]
This is the powerpoint ( I realise I've attached it twice) that goes with the Youtube video of Elaine at the Real Farming Conference :It should also be noted that the Sparks - Minerals in Soils slide, the soil food web slide and the succession slide were part of a slideshow that I sat through by the newly branded Agrovista AgX meeting. Their soil expert, Chris Martin talked for a while about these things as a conventional big ag company. I thought that was quite interesting. I went up after and asked him if he believed it - he said 'A bit, but it ain't the panacea she says it is'. A fair opinion but still taking some far left field ideas and pulling them into the centre.
Thank you."Big Ag" will follow the money & too be fair I think he's right, we've got used to quick fix ag, bottle of this bag of that, problem solved! Tinkering around with soil, compost, crop rotations etc & working it out yourself is a lot more complicated/risky. Bloody good fun though!
- Location
- Derbyshire UK
How much would you charge to run a sample of compost under your microscope Daniel?Looks like they love it!
I'm not too bothered about all the names, just fungal: bacteria ratio
What like is this?
microbiometer.com
Shop Best Soil Microbial Lab Testing Services @ microBIOMETER®
microBIOMETER® is a worldwide company that offers an easy to use, at home soil microbe testing meter for determining total microbial biomass.
microbiometer.com
- Location
- Derbyshire UK
Awesome, how clever is that! Are you tempted to give it a try?What like is this?
Shop Best Soil Microbial Lab Testing Services @ microBIOMETER®
microBIOMETER® is a worldwide company that offers an easy to use, at home soil microbe testing meter for determining total microbial biomass.
Hi Rob, £55 plus vat - see more here https://soilecologylab.co.uk/soil-biology-testing/
The soil microbiometer produces results which have a zero correlation with microscopy testing. They also use Dr. Ingham's tables of interpretation of their results - which were created with a microscope...
I would love not to have to look down the scope, but at the moment this is the best we have for this particular test.
If Dr. Fitzpatrick creates her own table of interpretation of ecological succession involving the fungal to bacterial biomass ratio, then I would be very happy to use it. It's very simple and therefore very attractive - with immediate results, but I have been given samples to assess which were totally bacterial, but the microbiometer showed F:B as high as 0.9
I'm biased - don't take my word for it - here's an independent review.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Yes, but I don't keep sheep anymore, they undo so much.
Dairy heifers tend to leave a large amount of cash in the bank to buy feedstock with, and so we possibly apply 2.5x their weight gain in compost?
As well as the in-situ compost with the grazing, either way there's an inch on top of last year's surface and much more depth of the A horizon thanks to the much better root systems and great crops of weeds we can accomodate in this type of system
I suppose the new term for it would be "continuous perennial covercropping" but really it's just good grazing, and planning for this to happen
- Location
- Derbyshire UK
What your saying makes sense, suppose the only negative to posting a sample is what effect that has on the biology. Have you tested that i.e. sample in the field v same posted?
No, I've not had a chance to do that with a client, but we're on a farm, do our own trials here and we see no difference. One day in the post doesn't change much unless you completely choke it for air.
With the amount of samples we've gone through I have no doubt that 99% of ag soils have little to no fungi in them.
I'd love to get to a point where we fit out a van with a mini lab and go to a client for a day. We're not there yet
99% have no fungi in them!!No, I've not had a chance to do that with a client, but we're on a farm, do our own trials here and we see no difference. One day in the post doesn't change much unless you completely choke it for air.
With the amount of samples we've gone through I have no doubt that 99% of ag soils have little to no fungi in them.
I'd love to get to a point where we fit out a van with a mini lab and go to a client for a day. We're not there yet
What type of farms are the 1%