Drilling into the green

[Gil87]

Due to the rubbish weather in 19/20 we haven’t been able to spray our cc off. We usually spray off mid jan early feb to drill mid March. I’ve got peas and oats to drill and don’t think we will be drilling until April now. Do I A) spray off as soon as I can travel? Which should give a month for it die off. B) leave and spray off just before drilling? We have got a gd weaving. Any help and advise would be appreciated.

 

[martian]

The danger of spraying it off now is that you'll have a mat of dead, slimy cover crop on the surface to stop it drying/warming up ready for your spring drilling. Conversely having living roots in the ground will help dry the soil (and keep your soil creatures fed and happy) as well as supporting the weight of your tractor/drill better, so you'll probably get going sooner. We drilled some Mulika into standing covers with our GD about a month ago (on admittedly quite light land)...it's coming up a treat.

 

[Gil87]

Thanks. I’ve always wanted to drill on the green but it’s very worrying I can’t afford a disaster! Does the cc not have an effect on the growing crop once it is dying? Or does one die then the crop just grow past it as it dying? (If you understand that)

 

[yellow belly]

it does depend on the weather following the drill
in a warm dry spring I have found the green to dry the soil out too quickly for the new crop of spring beans but when we got good rains in may there is no problem
also when planting cereal that need nitrogen to vigorous a spring grown of cover can deplete the nitrogen in the soil so if I had too drill cereals on the green apply a high proportion the nitrogen just before drilling
this is less of a problem on high organic matter fields that get regular muck and grass ley in the rotation

 

[Gil87]

it does depend on the weather following the drill
in a warm dry spring I have found the green to dry the soil out too quickly for the new crop of spring beans but when we got good rains in may there is no problem
also when planting cereal that need nitrogen to vigorous a spring grown of cover can deplete the nitrogen in the soil so if I had too drill cereals on the green apply a high proportion the nitrogen just before drilling
this is less of a problem on high organic matter fields that get regular muck and grass ley in the rotation

We usually put a top dressing on before drilling anyway. We have grazed a few covers the last month as well so muck from the sheep will be present. Our fields have high OM most fields above average.

 

[kiwi]

Your concern is very valid in my experience. After I had trouble someone told me they had talked to a covercrop guru in the USA, who told them to either spray and wait at least three weeks or drill green and then spray. It is sometimes the dying plant releasing toxins that the seed picks up as its swelling to germinate. I imagine the soil temperatures being warm would shorten the risk period.
I am now going to spray 6 weeks ahead if I can otherwise sow on the green but I haven't done the later yet.
In saying all this some people seem to get on with no issues and I wonder if placing of fert with seed would negate the issue.

 

[martian]

Your concern is very valid in my experience. After I had trouble someone told me they had talked to a covercrop guru in the USA, who told them to either spray and wait at least three weeks or drill green and then spray. It is sometimes the dying plant releasing toxins that the seed picks up as its swelling to germinate. I imagine the soil temperatures being warm would shorten the risk period.
I am now going to spray 6 weeks ahead if I can otherwise sow on the green but I haven't done the later yet.
In saying all this some people seem to get on with no issues and I wonder if placing of fert with seed would negate the issue.

Aha...we put some fert down the spout with the Mulika we drilled last month.Thought something was different, I'm not used to this handy feature of the GD.

The late Matt Hagny reckoned that there was some transfer of glyphosate underground from dying cover crop to new seedlings, then there's the Two Simon's effect. Your best bet is to find a neighbour with sheep and graze the covers down as much s possible (without compacting the surface of your soil) and then both these potential problems are minimised: the roots won't be so active and there won't be so much surface trash.

 

[kiwi]

Do you have a liquid or solid fert system on the GD? We're you sowing into covercrop ?
I would like to have fert option in spring but don't have and my crops suffered because of that I think.
Re the glyphosate, I thought I had the same issue as Matt Hagney suggested with glyphosate and so tested the plant and the soil but only found trace in soil and nothing in the plant. Certainly looked like it had a touch of glyphosate though.

 

[martian]

Do you have a liquid or solid fert system on the GD? We're you sowing into covercrop ?
I would like to have fert option in spring but don't have and my crops suffered because of that I think.
Re the glyphosate, I thought I had the same issue as Matt Hagney suggested with glyphosate and so tested the plant and the soil but only found trace in soil and nothing in the plant. Certainly looked like it had a touch of glyphosate though.

Solid fert in one hopper, seed in t'other. Used these to trim up covers.

 

[steveR]

Interesting thread.

Based on nothing other than idle pondering... Does a crimped cover crop dying off slowly, cause less of an issue with either the glyphosate transfer or the Two Simons effect to the freshly driilled and emerging crop?

I assume that flailing off the CC would lead to the same problem @martian mentions above, a wet mess on top! I guess the actual quantity of the CC material is the crux of the issue...?

 

[Bury the Trash]

Interesting thread.

Based on nothing other than idle pondering... Does a crimped cover crop dying off slowly, cause less of an issue with either the glyphosate transfer or the Two Simons effect to the freshly driilled and emerging crop?

I assume that flailing off the CC would lead to the same problem @martian mentions above, a wet mess on top! I guess the actual quantity of the CC material is the crux of the issue...?

If you mean the acid conditions caused by the decaying material killing the emerging seedlings , then I think the idea with terminating the cover at or bit beyond 'zero hour'is that the seed will germinate and be strong enough by the time those acid conditions happen

Dont want to much wet at the time either of course, as that exacerbates the problem.... and what goes along with that is that something growing keeps the ground relativly dryer than something dead. So still growing till the very last minute is helping the situation inthat way as well


Ie. kill still well before time or as late possible . Simply put.
Well beford not being in keeping with the keeping green cover ethos tho of course.

 

[steveR]

If you mean the acid conditions caused by the decaying material killing the emerging seedlings , then I think the idea with terminating the cover at or bit beyond 'zero hour'is that the seed will germinate and be strong enough by the time those acid conditions happen

Dont want to much wet at the time either of course, as that exacerbates the problem.... and what goes along with that is that something growing keeps the ground relativly dryer than something dead. So still growing till the very last minute is helping the situation inthat way as well


Ie. kill still well before time or as late possible . Simply put.
Well befo not being in keeping with the keeping green cover ethos tho of course.

dshipp

Thank you. So based on what you indicate above, crimping will work in that the crimped crop material will (or should!) die back slowly so causing less problems to the newly emerging crop. Certainly better than leaving a mat of flailed off material!

I reckon the pure NT/DD green cover ethos is one to aspire to, but one that might take a few trys to get right! Gonna be fun this Spring having a play in some non-cash crops!! Got some nice overwintered Mustard that is going to be the first test! It's fairly open crop, so lots of options.

The game cover and stewardship can be DD into last years mix and overwintered weed that will be burned off with Kyleo as late as is possible to allow the green "cover" to pull as much moisture out as is possible.

 

[Bury the Trash]

dshipp

Thank you. So based on what you indicate above, crimping will work in that the crimped crop material will (or should!) die back slowly so causing less problems to the newly emerging crop. Certainly better than leaving a mat of flailed off material!

I reckon the pure NT/DD green cover ethos is one to aspire to, but one that might take a few trys to get right! Gonna be fun this Spring having a play in some non-cash crops!! Got some nice overwintered Mustard that is going to be the first test! It's fairly open crop, so lots of options.

The game cover and stewardship can be DD into last years mix and overwintered weed that will be burned off with Kyleo as late as is possible to allow the green "cover" to pull as much moisture out as is possible.

yes probably .
ive no idea really its not really relevant to what we do, ie livestock eat everything here within an inch of its life.?
the small amount of arable we do rotates around the grass leys in traditional manner ..??‍

 

[steveR]

yes probably .
ive no idea really its not really relevant to what we do, ie livestock eat everything here within an inch of its life.?
the small amount of arable we do rotates around the grass leys in traditional manner ..??‍

Not even the sheep would want what is in the bottom of some of these areas!! Maybe a starving goat...