E10 Petrol consultation

[Bald Rick]

So the government want introduce E10 petrol from next year - or the inclusion of 10% bioethanol into petrol possibly affecting tens of thousands of older vehicles and is putting it out to public consultation (although I hesitate to suggest how they may word it ....)

My question is: How many litres or part litre of diesel does it take to produce 1 litre of bioethanol as I assume that it is plant based and therefore has to be commercially grown at a field scale?

Link to consultation:

Introducing E10 petrol

Proposals on how to introduce E10 petrol for vehicle use throughout the UK.

www.gov.uk

 

[Scribus]

While I am all in favour of renewable carbon based fuels it must be noted that ethanol is not problem free. The various issues include its lower energy density, its tendency to absorb water and its effects on certain components within older fuel systems, even the swelling of plastic MC tanks which both Ducati and Triumph once suffered from. However, E5 has been around for a while now and I'm not sure that E10 will add greatly to the problems, I've used it in a 93 bike abroad without hassle.

Synthetic diesel fuels for CI engines is the best way forward but that is a huge threat to the EV lobby which is why they squeal so loudly when it is suggested.

 

[GeorgeK]

I expect if we import the grain from abroad the C02 used to grow it doesn't count towards our country's emissions, which is all that matters to the government

 

[newhollandcruzr]

US on 15% so 10 should be ok ? https://uk-mobile-reuters-com.cdn.a...errer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s

 

[deleted user 837354]

The government could insist red diesel is switched to HVO and then cut the duty on it slightly to offset the increased cost. This would be more meaningful than putting E10 on the forecourt.

A lot of premium petrol supplies will contain a bit more ethanol because of the effect it has on octane ratings.


I believe a number of European cars (and probably American) are already designed with ethanol in mind, particularly where they might be marketed abroad. Porsche in particular I think had to think about this because of the widespread use of E10 in place like California.

 

[Roger Perry]

Don't understand what you guys are getting all steamed about, it will be fine, been that way over here for years, if my Ford pickup can go from 0-60 in under 6 secs' on the stuff you nothing to worry about.

 

[GeorgeK]

E85 in Oz, great for engine tuners because it has a high octane rating and knock resistance

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't understand what you guys are getting all steamed about, it will be fine, been that way over here for years, if my Ford pickup can go from 0-60 in under 6 secs' on the stuff you nothing to worry about.

Not getting steamed up but I am interested in the economics of it as I noted from an American paper from 1995 (so I will have to allow that technology has moved on) that it took 5.85 gallons of fuel (or fuel equivalents in terms of joules) to produce 1 gallon of bioethanol from corn (maize). IF that figure is right or nearly right, it doesn't appear to be carbon friendly at all. Of course, if we import the ethanol, this would be a "credit" to the UK.

Whole thing is barmy

 

[Roger Perry]

I would guess that the abundance of cheap natural gas has re-set the economics of producing ethanol since 1995, however growing corn to turn into fuel does not stack up with oil being so cheap and plentiful.

 

[Highland Mule]

Seems that one bushel of corn can produce about three (US) gallons of diesel. Can you work it through from that? I’d guess that it doesn’t take more than a very small fraction of tractor diesel to make a bushel of corn, but have never grown it so don’t have any basis to work from.

It's Final -- Corn Ethanol Is Of No Use

Can we stop pretending biofuel from corn is helping the planet and the environment? The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change released a new report reversing its previous support of biofuels, stating, “Increasing bioenergy crop cultivation poses risks to ecosystems and...

www.forbes.com

 

[Highland Mule]

Five Ethanol Myths, Busted

The United States consumes nearly one-quarter of the world’s petroleum production, yet contains a small fraction of its reserves. As other countries’ economies grow, the appetite for this finite energy source increases, placing greater pressure on the resource itself and the environment at...

www.wired.com

Might answer your question too - it certainly seems data heavy.

 

[Swarfmonkey]

E85 in Oz, great for engine tuners because it has a high octane rating and knock resistance

You can get E85 in various parts of the US as well. It’s great for boosted engines, and even better for the tuners because they can flog bigger turbos and superchargers and injectors to get the best out of it.

Bloke I share an industrial unit with runs his weekend toy on M5 alky. Don’t half make your eyes stream when he fires it up though. Proper nasty compared to C16.

 

[deleted user 837354]

Modern high performance engines are designed for it and lap it up- better (cooler??) burn and so more slap for per rpm but there is less energy in ethanol so your fuel consumption increases.

Given the huge volume of cheap natural gas the Americans have you would think they would be exporting GTL fuel abroad in tankers as it is more economically attractive than shipping LNG.

 

[Roger Perry]

Five Ethanol Myths, Busted

The United States consumes nearly one-quarter of the world’s petroleum production, yet contains a small fraction of its reserves. As other countries’ economies grow, the appetite for this finite energy source increases, placing greater pressure on the resource itself and the environment at...

www.wired.com

Might answer your question too - it certainly seems data heavy.

That article was written in 2011.
The US is now the worlds oil producer I believe due to fracking.

 

[Highland Mule]

That article was written in 2011.
The US is now the worlds oil producer I believe due to fracking.

I was more interested in the efficiency of production - any insight if that’s changed Roger?

 

[PSQ]

E85 in Oz, great for engine tuners because it has a high octane rating and knock resistance

I'm told by an engine builder that they use E85 pump fuel in Sweden. He showed me a pair of 2 stroke pistons from the UK and Sweden, both removed during '25 hourly' top end rebuilds. The UK piston was blackened, but the Teflon coated skirt was intact bar a bit of wear. The Swedish piston was clean as a whistle, but the Teflon was nowhere to be seen...

 

[Roger Perry]

I was more interested in the efficiency of production - any insight if that’s changed Roger?

No, it all revolves around corn production which is not grown in my locale.
Bio-diesel is a product of soybeans rather than corn I believe..............

 

[wanton dwarf]

No, it all revolves around corn production which is not grown in my locale.
Bio-diesel is a product of soybeans rather than corn I believe..............

The UK not allowed to grow GM Soya .. does the USA import Brazilian Soya or is it all home grown ?

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

No, it all revolves around corn production which is not grown in my locale.
Bio-diesel is a product of soybeans rather than corn I believe..............

Over here biodiesel is generally made from canola oil.

 

[yellow belly]

Bioethanol added to petrol at e 10 level would give wheat ethanol use a boost in the uk
when we have a descent yielding year the wheat can be converted into a high protein feed the nitrogen containing bit and ethanol the energy bit which comes from the sun and co2

we need the protein feed to feed people a balanced diet
most other proteins are imported and often genenically modified

I use about 7 litres of diesel per tonne of wheat