ebv debate

[shearit by blades]

very intresting reading from Neale mcquisten in last weeks farmers weekly , about ebvs and sam boons reply , as Neale points out buyers didn't ask about ebvs and non ebvs were selling like hot cakes , for the last few years we have sold a few pure charollais rams and not one asked about figures just about being pushed on cake ect , and we seem to sell out at the first sale we go to and people comeing back for more to replace rams from well known breeders cos ours do the job and there lambs are selling well, . is there a future for ebvs to the commercial man or just pedigree breeders . are breeders breeding rams and listening to buyers or breeding to an estimated figure and not worried about buyers , I have seen rams hawked to 3 or four sales to try and make a golden price and hear guys say but look at its figures, and its shocking confermation says nothing about the ram . its all to confuseing to me but in the long term are ebvs a help or hinderance to the commercial farmer who buys them this is a genuine question I know I will be slated by many but hayho should be intresting to hear replys

 

[romneymarsh]

EBVs are a public demonstration of genetic recorded management. It is proved beyond doubt that genetic selection increases production criteria. Breeding by eye is genetic selection by another slower more unpredictable route. Kilos of hard feed to bring an animal to sale and any sort of trimming is nothing more than deception in my opinion.

This debate around EBVs is a diversion and just silly.

 

[DrDunc]

EBV's used together with a visual inspection for defects can undoubtedly improve your flock/herd.

However a there are far too many bought on statistics which have an accuracy level below 75%.

The figures may look good, but without considering whether the numbers have enough data behind them to provide validity, a ridiculous number of animals are bought that ought to have been slaughtered before sale.




Please folks, look at the accuracy levels, and look at the animal.

 

[romneymarsh]

EBV's used together with a visual inspection for defects can undoubtedly improve your flock/herd.

However a there are far too many bought on statistics which have an accuracy level below 75%.

The figures may look good, but without considering whether the numbers have enough data behind them to provide validity, a ridiculous number of animals are bought that ought to have been slaughtered before sale.




Please folks, look at the accuracy levels, and look at the animal.

Yes Accuracy is an issue and I agree with your last para, equally a bag of feed can bring an 'also ran' to a 'show ' stopper. That's not helpful either is it ?

 

[JD-Kid]

intresting seen something the other day
basicly to get the best on farm genic gains the animals have to be picked /rased back the front IE
lower weight higher lambing %
over feed finest micron
under feed highest weight gains
no drenching for worm tolance
no triming feet /bathing for foot probs
etc etc

 

[Gulli]

They are another selection tool, why not use them if they are there?

No one is forcing you to use them so if you don't think k they are worth it then you don't have to. Seems a bit of a pointless conversation to me...

 

[Bury the Trash]

its a good thing. .shouldnt be seen as a marketing tool- just a way of improving sheep.

 

[beltextexel]

Sold 50 tups last year and 40 this year... Not one person asked for ebv's! I'll save some money on the testing until people start asking about breeding values I think!

 

[Gulli]

Sold 50 tups last year and 40 this year... Not one person asked for ebv's! I'll save some money on the testing until people start asking about breeding values I think!

Do the figures not help you produce better rams?

 

[Mutch]

Do the figures not help you produce better rams?

Yes, and when the customer comes back for another ram in a year or two he is expecting a better ram than he purchased last time, with EBV's this can be achieved and demonstrated.

 

[JD-Kid]

i just can't get my head around them even tho it makes sence
yet i can get my head around say a micron and wool weight based against the flock avg or EMA and the avg EMA for mob etc weaning weight and 200 day even tho the ebv is takeing all that in to account
guess it's cos we know what 45 kg's looks like but 1.15 all of a sudden means nothing both are numbers yet some of us can relate to some numbers better

 

[JD-Kid]

Yes, and when the customer comes back for another ram in a year or two he is expecting a better ram than he purchased last time, with EBV's this can be achieved and demonstrated.

only if you know your last numbers .... one stud i have brought off i send them my current ram numbers they can see the rams i have and work on higher gains in the areas i'm looking at
one ram i had when re ranking rams i had was at the top for 3 years only in the last 2 years has he been knocked off his placeing he was ranked 2nd out of 1200 rams tho when i got him

 

[cowboysupper]

EBV's used together with a visual inspection for defects can undoubtedly improve your flock/herd.

However a there are far too many bought on statistics which have an accuracy level below 75%.

The figures may look good, but without considering whether the numbers have enough data behind them to provide validity, a ridiculous number of animals are bought that ought to have been slaughtered before sale.




Please folks, look at the accuracy levels, and look at the animal.

While I can't disagree with you on accuracy too much, please be mindful that there are some us who only bought our first recorded ram lamb last year and only started recording this year so it'll take us a few years to build up our accuracy!

Can't remember what the accuracy of our stock ram was when we bought him but he is now up over 90% and we could definitely see his best physical traits coming through with the figures in our first year using him.

We only had one farmer ask for EBVs this year. He was a young fella like myself. But then again only 3% of registered sires in N. Ireland are recorded so I'd imagine there's a big knowledge gap out there of what they mean.

I don't think EBVs have put any extra money in my pocket this year in terms of commercial farmers sourcing high EBV rams and paying more for them. However we've had a good experience with the recorded ram we have used in terms of the performance of our lambs and I believe that in the long term if we select on good physical traits and statistics, we will improve the genetic merit of our flock which I hope will can be utilised by commercial farmers in the future.

 

[Henarar]

We only had one farmer ask for EBVs this year. He was a young fella like myself. But then again only 3% of registered sires in N. Ireland are recorded so I'd imagine there's a big knowledge gap out there of what they mean.

is this not part of the problem, if everyone recorded wouldn't the figures be more meaningful ?

 

[hinchy]

Please folks, look at the accuracy levels, and look at the animal.

+1

It's a combination of the two. It could have the best figures in the world, but you've got to look at its offspring everyday! Our purchases will continue to be figures then looks. Always in that order.

 

[beltextexel]

Do the figures not help you produce better rams?

The buyers tell me which my best tups are with their wallets. If I see demand dropping for my tups and an increase in people looking for ebv, then I would consider doing more recording.

 

[andybk]

its a good thing. .shouldnt be seen as a marketing tool- just a way of improving sheep.

a very good reply ,and absolutely my thoughts , have had a number of good index terminal rams here over the last few years , none left now , simply because their offspring didnt touch or grade well on old pasture at 40kg (maybe at 80kg !) , thats not to say i wouldnt buy another , just that anything raised and recorded in any differing way or weight to how the offspring are expected to perform wont replicate the desired results ,
There was one non recorded from a commercial flock who bred his own rams with a v high index sire and dam (sire) he was very good , although small , but still gave v good offspring at killing weight ,so there is mileage in it and salvaged some of my faith in the scheme ,
I think they still have a long way to go before you can rely on the results though , and 25 years down the line if all was well should be miles in front by now .

 

[gatepost]

I record, and not many customers buy on figs, but at least I know that our tups will stand along with the best, even if they have not had, god knows what thrown at them to 'make' them into that 'super specimen', however as some one who sells commercial lambs in the open Mart they have to look right to earn the premium, Neale is quite right you need the look, but the right EBVs for you system can put money in your pocket too.

 

[Joe]

its a good thing. .shouldnt be seen as a marketing tool- just a way of improving sheep.

This is the reason I record

 

[alltddubach]

We try to buy recorded tups and also record a few texel ewes just to keep rams for ourselves. When it comes to deciding which ewe lambs to keep and which ewes to cull I've never even looked at the ebv's, prefer to cull any problem ewes and their lambs to reduce any poor traits.
Try to use the ewe ebv's to pick the ram to improve what values need improving.
Slowly the figures are improving and hopefully in a few years we can sell a few rams with good figures and they'll be as problem free as can be to whoever buys them.