Ecotricity and Sparsholt

[delilah]

According to Wikipedia he is Selling the Busness to concentrate on Politics

Yep, hopefully Green . Will be interesting to see where the arch entrepreneur sits on state ownership policy.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Two of you have suggested SSE and EON. I'm not remotely persuaded that they offer environmental or ethical benefits over Ecotricity.

I didn't say they did, but I don't believe Ecotricity inherently offer any benefit over them either. All of the power companies offer "100 %" green options. They all base it at least partly on buying "REGO" certificates from others who are buying renewable power from generators. The only genuinely 100% renewable electricity supply yet is folk who are off grid and solely use renewable generation.

Turbines, PV, Are farmers doing that because they love Dale Vince ?

I've had PV here for 7 years. Mr Vince had no influence on that at all.

 

[Huno]

OK. So I've now had time to read it thoroughly. My observations:

"If we model in changes to our diet, the reduction of animal consumption and therefore farming - the opportunity gets even bigger, green gas from grass could actually power the whole country’s homes and businesses."

So it IS about cutting meat..... What did you say about voting against our own interests?

"Green gas made this way would have almost 90% less greenhouse emissions when compared to north sea gas and synthetic fertiliser use - green gasmills produce natural fertiliser as a by product."

He's clearly talking about grassland with no artificial fertiliser use then. That's simply not going to work without most of the carbon being returned to the soil (rather than burnt for energy and sold for profit)

"In many ways the process is just like a cow: the grass goes in one end, and gas and fertiliser come out the other. But in this case, rather than the gas ‘escaping’ like it does from cows, it is collected and used to replace natural gas."

Except that it's not. It relies on using large energy inputs to harvest and haul the grass to AD units, clamp it, process it, "clean up the methane" fit to inject into the gas grid then haul the digestate back to the land and spread it. Large AD units already have issues with capacity in wet periods, being unable to spread their excess digestate. This proposal is based on an increase in distaste volume of many orders of magnitude. Where the hell will they store it all in winter and how much damage week they do hauling and spreading it to land on the first half decent day of spring? I'd like to see the full energy lifecycle account.

" biomethane loss from upgrading processes .... ranges from 0.001 to 5.5% of gas generation. Due to the high technology of Green Gas Mills, we assumed that methane slips would be in the lower range. .....So, we assumed 0.5% of methane slip from the biogas upgrading facility on average."

So they are using very optimistic energy loss figures without offering evidence.

We assume that seaweed addition to Green Gas Mills may improve biomethane yield by 20%.

So let's bump up our yield estimate another 20% (aren't we being told that feeding seaweed to cows CUTS methane emission? How can it then INCREASE methane yield in an AD plant, even before you think about where to get it from for "Green Gas Mills" that are far from the coast)

"Herbal ley mixture yield per hectare was obtained from the Cotswold Grass Seed webpage which states that herbal ley yields 13 tonnes of dry matter (DM) per hectare"

based on mob stocking with animals which enhance the soil health, not in mowing for removal....

"According to the Committee on Climate Change (CCC) analysis39, 22% of the land currently used for agriculture (the total UK agricultural area is 17.46 million hectares39) will be available by 2050 due to a variety of factors, including increased sustainable crop productivity and livestock grazing intensity, decreasing beef, lamb, and dairy consumption, reducing food waste, and moving horticulture production indoors. Therefore, an additional 3.84 million hectares of land will be available for use in green gas generation, resulting in an additional 146.9 to 286.8 TWh energy capacity per year."

There we go again, cutting livestock numbers. It's a vegan campaign.

If an additional 1.19 million hectares of common grazing areas are used for grassland production, biomethane production could reach 292.7 to 571.3 TWh, replacing 36.2 to 70.6% of natural gas demand, depending on herbal ley biomass yield per hectare of grassland and gas production unit loss.

Really? They're going to intensively silage the commons? And might still only achieve 36.2% of grid gas supply need despite using exaggerated yield figures.

Additionally, according to the UK Government’s Net-Zero Strategy40, heat and building energy demand is expected to fall by 15-20% by 2050 as a result of energy efficiency measures such as improving homes to meet Minimum Energy Efficiency Standards to EPC band C and building new homes with a high standard of energy efficiency.

Ah! So we won't need as much heating. That'll be because the government finally stop scraping their insulation schemes and actually do something that is REALLY addressing or energy use....

3. How economic is green gas?
Grass from the previously identified suitable grassland has to be converted into biomethane. Anaerobic digestion plants have to be built, and the grass must be collected and transported to the plants. The production of biomethane depends on the geographical location and the type of grass available to produce biomethane. The cost of biomethane production is an important pillar because it affects the competitiveness of the energy vector. The cost of biomethane relies on the following components:
• Feedstock costs include feedstock collection costs and costs of transporting the feedstock from the collection location to the conversion location.
• Operating expenses (OPEX) including conversion and upgrading costs.
• Capital expenditure (CAPEX) including conversion, upgrading and injection costs.
3.1 Feedstock cost
The average cost of the simple herbal ley mixture was estimated to be around £6.47 per kg (£194 per hectare) although this will vary from year to year.

So they could be well out with their estimates. Also, what does the establishment cost on top of the seed?

3.2 Feedstock transport cost
Typically, herbal leys for biomethane production are collected and transported to the conversion plant. It is assumed that herbal ley will be transported over a maximum of 5 miles from a Green Gas Mill to grassland and back. The haulage rate per mile for an 18/27 tonne vehicle is £2.547. However, in most new Green Gas plants the aim will be to harvest as much as possible from the farm where the Green Gas Mill is located and neighbouring farms.

Christ! These "Mills" are going to be ALL OVER the countryside then.

3.3 Biomethane production cost
Bioenergy costs, efficiencies, and emission intensities can change over time, but they are not expected to change across scenarios. The full cost data for biogas and biomethane production are adapted from CCC analysis.

All the CCC analysis I've seen is highly straight questionable.

Herbal ley mixture species do not require agricultural land, so they do not compete with food production

Laughable if it wasn't actually intended to be serious!

Herbal leys on grasslands even have the potential to enhance biodiversity65,66 and to provide additional benefits such as increased carbon capture from the atmosphere and food production for pollinators like bees, butterflies and hoverflies

ALL grassland has that potential if it is managed right.

When used in crop rotation cycles, the varieties of native grass species we use in our Green Gas Mills can increase food productivity on arable farmland and improve soil health while breaking disease and fungal cycles that can persist in the soil because herbal leys build soil carbon, fix nitrogen and mobilise phosphate for the following crop, all of which benefit soil fauna. Deep-rooted grassland has the ability
to create and restore healthy organic matter to the topsoil in a way that cannot be duplicated by adding organic topsoil or manures alone, as they can reach water deeper in soil. Also, growing herbal leys creates an absorbent layer on the surface, which has the benefit of impeding rainfall runoff, thereby providing greater community benefit from reduced flood risk.

Not when you bugger the soil structure by applying digestate with 50+T rigs several times a year to get rid of it, speaking from personal experience.

The main emissions from green gas generation are methane emissions from anaerobic digesters, biogas upgrading units, digestate storage and transmissions, distribution and storage of green gas, and nitrous oxides from digestate handling stages.

What about all the establishment, mowing, taking, harvesting, hauling, back hauling and spreading? Doesn't that cause emissions?

5.1 Upstream GHG emissions
If the available grassland is not used for Green Gas Mills, the land would be used for grazing.
According to the UK National Atmospheric Emission Inventory (NAEI, 2022), the UK’s emissions from grazing are 1,037 kilotonnes of CO2-eq for 2019. The total grazing land in the UK in 2019 is 5.09 million hectares, including rough and common grazing land. Therefore, emission intensities in 2019 would be 203.7 kg CO2-eq/ha. The emissions would be higher if methane emissions from manure management and nitrous oxide emissions from agricultural soils were included. We aim to assess the lowest possible range of GHG emissions savings by operating Green Gas Mills.
The grassland emission savings are 1,100 kilotonnes CO2-eq for 201980. Given the UK’s total grassland area of 12.08 million hectares, the grassland emission intensity in 2019 would be -91.1 kg CO2-eq/ha.

So we are having all this on GWP100 again, a regular Vegan approach.

What about the Energy Return On Energy Invested? Is it actually better than other systems?

IMHO It over-estimates:
The area of land suitable.
The likely forage yield per hectare
The likely methane yield
The "Green Gas Mill" efficiency

And under estimates:
The cost of converting pasture to herbal leys
The cost of haulage
The damage to soils from digestate spreading and silage harvest

It cherry picks the base data in the most advantageous way.
It's a vegan plan dressed up as an energy one.

Moving on to the gas boiler bit now.

Unless major thermal improvements are being made to the property at the same time as heat pump installation, a lower temperature distribution system will be required. In most retrofit situations it is impractical to fit underfloor distribution so in practice this means increasing emitter (radiator) sizes so that they can deliver the same comfort temperatures while using a lower temperature distribution system.

But it already said their plan is based on all properties being upgraded to higher insulation.

I actually agree with much of their assessment around ASHPs and boilers. GSHPs are much more evident though and they intentionally don't mention those. They also make the case around "wasted assets" where had boilers are roach before failing. Who is proposing that?

Overall it's a weak report based on highly biased assumptions with a clear vegan narrative. It's anti livestock farmer.

But nowhere does it mention the distortion of economics which OFGEM pay the operator quarterly for 20 years at a set price for every bit of energy produced...(FIT's) It cold hard business and will be very profitable regardless of the vegan marketing agenda.. they will also need 6000 acres not 3k for the whole thing to work.. i would love to plant 6000 acres of winter wheat on that land at the end of the project... it will be like virgin soil by then... most vegans will be self extinct by 2043!!!

 

[Huno]

If Ecotricity weren't promoting a vegan ideology this thread wouldn't exist as no-one on here would give a stuff.

Rubbish... its a very interesting land use experiment in its own right.. the thread would have appeared as a re wilding and bio diversity net gain carbon offsetting business model instead... just leave the vegans to their own games...

 

[Huno]

May I suggest a different approach? Ask the editor of that newsletter how many acres of land they'd have to take out of food production in order to supply the plant with all the grass required for it to run at 100%.

That then gives you something to use against them, written by their own hand .

6000 acres extensively and 3000 acres intensively is the answer

 

[Martin Holden]

My alternative would be state owned electrcicity generation. I don't believe any public utility should be in private hands. The issue of governments running them badly is another matter.

Indivivduals all over the world are getting rich on the back of essential public services.

I also don't buy your assertion that he is pumping money into UK agriculture any more than others do unless you can point me to evidence I haven't been able to find so far. Buying AD energy doesn't count for much imho as most AD generation capacity is not run by farmers.

Agreed power generation and distribution should be in public hands not private. Mind you governments are notoriously bad managers of state owned businesses but maybe they can be changed in the future by professional people running them as of or were a private company.

 

[Highland Mule]

I'm not remotely persuaded that they offer environmental or ethical benefits over Ecotricity.

Agreed - they offer exactly the same as Ecotricity, but for less money. You could of course use that money to buy a lentil knitting machine if you wanted..

We are agreed that, environmentally, grass should go through a cow before it gets to an AD plant.

Don’t think we are agreed on that either, although this isn’t the first time you’ve asserted it. I’d need a full energy balance calculation before I’d come to any conclusion. You may not be an engineer, but plenty of us are.

If we 'bring energy home', then UK farmers will benefit massively. Ecotricity are punching well above their weight in making that happen.

The only thing they’re punching above their weight in is telling lies and fooling the vulnerable. Shame you’re too blinkered to see that.

 

[Huno]

Agreed - they offer exactly the same as Ecotricity, but for less money. You could of course use that money to buy a lentil knitting machine if you wanted..



Don’t think we are agreed on that either, although this isn’t the first time you’ve asserted it. I’d need a full energy balance calculation before I’d come to any conclusion. You may not be an engineer, but plenty of us are.

The only thing they’re punching above their weight in is telling lies and fooling the vulnerable. Shame you’re too blinkered to see that.

Ecotricity have cashed in on energy market distortion... well done them and more fool anyone who pays them over the market rate for their services... Dale Vince quite rightly is laughing all the way to the bank.. Im with the SSE morons who claim to be green too!! None of them are green at present.. all of them will be by 2030... why argue over such trivia??

 

[Huno]

Agreed power generation and distribution should be in public hands not private. Mind you governments are notoriously bad managers of state owned businesses but maybe they can be changed in the future by professional people running them as of or were a private company.

You must be on a Gov.. seed supply contract then

 

[cheggars]

Yep, hopefully Green . Will be interesting to see where the arch entrepreneur sits on state ownership policy.

Lets hope he doesn't get very far, if he hasn't got the balls to stick with the concepts of the busness, what hope is there if he gets any power in politics.
The Digester will most likley be operating as a conventional Digester as soon as its sold. Out of sight out of mind.

 

[delilah]

I didn't say they did, but I don't believe Ecotricity inherently offer any benefit over them either. All of the power companies offer "100 %" green options.

I want one without blood on its hands. Maybe i'm just too fussy.

I've had PV here for 7 years. Mr Vince had no influence on that at all.

Yes he did.

 

[delilah]

Don’t think we are agreed on that either, although this isn’t the first time you’ve asserted it. I’d need a full energy balance calculation before I’d come to any conclusion. You may not be an engineer, but plenty of us are.

Then you need to start a thread on whether AD of cow muck makes sense.
( Have you ever started a thread ? Or do you just bitch and whinge at others ? )

 

[delilah]

Lets hope he doesn't get very far, if he hasn't got the balls to stick with the concepts of the busness, what hope is there if he gets any power in politics.
The Digester will most likley be operating as a conventional Digester as soon as its sold. Out of sight out of mind.

He is 60. Why should he stick at it for another decade ? I thought a common complaint about MP's these days is that they are professional politicians who went straight to it from Eton ? You want MP's who have cut it in the business world ? Or only if it is a business you approve of ?

As for the digester. Yes, I have already said the same up thread. Dale is on your side, whether this digester works to his plans or not. Local. Appropriate scale. Sustainable. ie the sort of power generation that is most relevant to farmers.

 

[Highland Mule]

I want one without blood on its hands. Maybe i'm just too fussy.

Doesn’t exist. Even your beloved solar panels are made using mined minerals in horrid circumstances.

We can minimise the damage we do to this planet, but the only way to stop it is to stop living. That would be the only true way to live an absolutely environmentally benign life, but perhaps a step too far for most.

Then you need to start a thread on whether AD of cow muck makes sense.
( Have you ever started a thread ? Or do you just bitch and whinge at others ? )

Started plenty, encourage most, only whinge at the truly stupid ideas. No desire to start a thread questioning the viability of something that’s been proven in use for many decade across multiple continents.

 

[DaveGrohl]

Then you need to start a thread on whether AD of cow muck makes sense.
( Have you ever started a thread ? Or do you just bitch and whinge at others ? )

You maybe aren’t aware but the yield from a digester using just slurry is a lot lower than using the source material (grass/wholecrop etc). To the point where they’re not really economically viable. So, no, we aren’t actually agreed that it’s a no brainer. Does it make sense to put the grass through a cow first and still use the slurry (with other feedstock alongside) for a digester? Well, yes, but it depends on your objectives and ultimately the economics of the job. And long-term govt policy, which no one can make any sense of anyway, primarily because there is no long-term policy and possibly never will be.

As an aside, since you asked, I provide all of my own power and power for many more homes besides. I’m not a fan of Vince, but I stated that a while ago. He irritates me greatly, not because he’s a vegan but because he’s a hypocrite even though he probably believes himself.

 

[DaveGrohl]

He is 60. Why should he stick at it for another decade ? I thought a common complaint about MP's these days is that they are professional politicians who went straight to it from Eton ? You want MP's who have cut it in the business world ? Or only if it is a business you approve of ?

As for the digester. Yes, I have already said the same up thread. Dale is on your side, whether this digester works to his plans or not. Local. Appropriate scale. Sustainable. ie the sort of power generation that is most relevant to farmers.

"Dale is on your side"

Sorry, I just can’t get my head round this bit. He wants to put livestock farmers out of business, end of.

 

[delilah]

Don’t think we are agreed on that either, although this isn’t the first time you’ve asserted it. I’d need a full energy balance calculation before I’d come to any conclusion. You may not be an engineer, but plenty of us are.

No desire to start a thread questioning the viability of something that’s been proven in use for many decade across multiple continents.

Confused. If putting grass through a cow and then into an AD plant is proven, and if putting it straight into the digester as proposed by Vince is nonsense, then you have reached your conclusion ? What am I missing ?

 

[Huno]

From this thread it is difficult to know if the livestock farmer or the eco terrorist are right or wrong!! Knowing the full story behing "vegan" AD plants i dont really think either "camp" has much to worry about in the long term.. so lets get back to making ELM's inputs!!!

 

[Daddy Pig]

Why is Vince so keen on herbal leys ? I was under the impression that grass was not the best feed for AD plants, there must be a reason why they favour hybrid rye and maize.

 

[Huno]

Why is Vince so keen on herbal leys ? I was under the impression that grass was not the best feed for AD plants, there must be a reason why they favour hybrid rye and maize.

He dont care baby.. its a marketing stunt... going fishing now