Electric dog trainers.

[David.]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the imminent ban on these and electric boundary devices, as mentioned by Jeremy Vine R2 yesterday.
It appears that Gove has gone along with RSPCA assertions that they are inhumane.
Any dog trainers care to comment, one way or the other. I have no agenda either way.
Other than perhaps the ultimate conclusion that electric fences may now also be under threat?

 

[unlacedgecko]

https://terriermandotcom.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/limits-and-strengths-of-e-collars.html?m=1

 

[milkloss]

I’m against a ban myself. The problem is the same old in that it’s the stigma they have. Used correctly they are an amazing tool for dog training and should never be used as a punishment.

Still, I suppose a stick is cheaper: give the dog a good thrashing with a bit of rage when it looks at a sheep.

 

[unlacedgecko]

As an aside, if electric fences are banned I shall give up farming. Livestock farming would become even more of a closed shop.

 

[Greenbeast]

As an aside, if electric fences are banned I shall give up farming. Livestock farming would become even more of a closed shop.

The difference being what controls the shock. Fences are passive that can be learned and avoided. Collars have been misused by shitty humans

 

[Greenbeast]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the imminent ban on these and electric boundary devices, as mentioned by Jeremy Vine R2 yesterday.
It appears that Gove has gone along with RSPCA assertions that they are inhumane.
Any dog trainers care to comment, one way or the other. I have no agenda either way.
Other than perhaps the ultimate conclusion that electric fences may now also be under threat?

There has been a thread on this with proponents for both sides

 

[Dry Rot]

This has been one of my rants for years. I'll try to explain. Sorry, this is going to be a long one!

Firstly, I am no fluffy bunny. I don't believe dogs can be trained entirely with treats! I've been around a long time. Started helping out with hounds at hunt kennels in my teens and was hunting a pack by 18. Bred, trained, and trialed gundogs for many years and exported to over 30 countries world-wide, some for five figure prices in today's money. I can't think of a working breed that I haven't trained. OK, that's the advert over.

I read the adverts and decided, like many do, that an e-collar was essential. I believe I was the first person to import one into Scotland in the 70's - early 80's. I have had at least four different models.

On a slightly different track, after going down this route for a while, I decided that I could make more progress with less confusion in the dog's mind if I used their instinct and encouragement as the motivating force rather than positive vs. negative. This is a bit complicated to explain on a forum and I don't know whether I will ever get around to writing that book! But here is a quick example: Gundogs instinctively chase hares. On the hills I trained on, we'd shoot 1,200 mountain hares in two days for pest control (that's how many you can load into two Landrovers!). This was always a problem until I dscovered that tossing the fatalities from my game pens into the pups' runs had the fringe benefit of 'hooking' them onto feathered game rather than fur. I also trained on quail and pigeons. The hare chasing problem became a thing of the past. Previously, I had used an e-collar which is purely negative. Now I would call the dog off a chase and walk away. The dog invariably followed as it did not wish to be left behind. (If a huntsman can turn and lead a pack of hounds, it should be no problem for an owner with one dog to do the same!).

I was delighted to give up e-collars because they are unreliable. A lot of negative training involves setting up a situation and letting the dog discover that what it wants to do isn't going to work and will end up with something nasty happening. That's fine, but it can go badly wrong when the dog does not react as expected or the collar doesn't work. I admit to having ruined and buried several victims of the e-collar. Electronics is not 100% reliable. The delivery of a shock depends on two metal prongs being in direct contact with the skin. The dog will be aware that it has the collar on and the clever ones will act differently when it's off. And so on. The eureka moment for me was seeing a very promising young dog apparently walking in on a rabbit in preparation for a chase. I pressed the button. Nothing happened! Thank god the dog did not receive a shock because a few moments later he came to a rigid point on his first ever find of a covey of grouse! That dog turned out to be one of the best I have ever owned, yet he was so very nearly ruined in a fraction of a second. If you have watched the videos of dogs that are trained with e-collars and can read their body language, the stress is obvious. In short, with an e-collar, you are creating a neurosis. Frankly, you are better off with a piece of string, which is what most pofessional trainers used pre-electric collars -- and, I might add, still do! At least, the dog cannot run off and with a bit of ingenuity a check cord will prove a useful in a lot of training exercises.

I started out in dog training, then my fascination with the learning process led me on to falconry where dogs can play a vital part. You can't use force to train a hawk. They are not social animals so you won't achieve much trying to use affection. Training is by careful management of diet and appetite. I progressed to horses about ten years ago, mostly because I am too old for working dogs or hawks but more importantly because I enjoy working with different types of intelligence and learning new things.

I am delighted to hear that e-collars are to be banned. They are unnecessary and assumed to be a quick fix by those who don't know. When they don't "work", there is a temptation for the impatient dog trainer to keep pressing the button. Yes, sometimes they can produce impressive results, but you will never read about the failures (and I've had a few!). Far more can be achieved with a bit of thought, a kind word, a scratch behind the ear -- and that piece of string. Humans are meant to have more intelligence than dogs. Maybe it's time we used it.

 

[Dry Rot]

I’m against a ban myself. The problem is the same old in that it’s the stigma they have. Used correctly they are an amazing tool for dog training and should never be used as a punishment.

Still, I suppose a stick is cheaper: give the dog a good thrashing with a bit of rage when it looks at a sheep.

How do you use one to deliver a reward? Presumably, we need to breed a masochistic dog that enjoys suffering!

 

[shumungus]

Electric collar an invaluable tool in the right hands. How else do you chastise a dog at 400m for gripping a ewe? Gives you ability to link the punishment to the crime in a dog's mind. My present main dog is one of the best working collies I have ever owned. He owes his life to the collar, because if not for it he would have to have been destroyed. Only thing that could slow him or stop him when young.

 

[milkloss]

How do you use one to deliver a reward? Presumably, we need to breed a masochistic dog that enjoys suffering!

We’ve been here before dryrot and we’ll have to disagree. If you took the time to research the product and how it should be used you would be aware the collar can be set to give a tap. Not a shock, although technically that’s what it is, it feels like someone has touched you. Try one on yourself, don’t be ignorant and give one a go.....on yourself and not the dog.

Maybe just keep thrashing them with a stick eh?

 

[Goweresque]

The biggest problem with dogs in society today is the object on the other end of the lead.

Forget banning e-collars as a measure to protect dogs (I have no hard feelings either way, I considered it for my dog as he was such hard work, decided against it, but would not wish to prevent others using them, many dogs owe their existence to them), do something about the scum who train their dogs as legal lethal weapons, use them as 'hard man' status symbols, puppy farm them, and worst of all use them for fighting.

That would help the welfare of dogs infinitely more than a ban on something the middle classes don't like the sound of. But of course that would be difficult, involving taking on the psychotic and criminal scum of society, rather than a normal person trying to train their dog to do the right thing, so as usual the politicians will go for the easy option........

 

[betweenthelines]

My son and a few other professional dog trainers have spoken to Defra about this.

He says it was a surprise how little Defra knew about them and how they should be used.

 

[Castle Farm]

Anyone using an 'Electric device' to supposedly train a dog needs to give up keeping a dog. Get yourself a nice little quad bike and call it Rover.

 

[Dry Rot]

We’ve been here before dryrot and we’ll have to disagree. If you took the time to research the product and how it should be used you would be aware the collar can be set to give a tap. Not a shock, although technically that’s what it is, it feels like someone has touched you. Try one on yourself, don’t be ignorant and give one a go.....on yourself and not the dog.

Maybe just keep thrashing them with a stick eh?

You have not been paying attention. I used them for about ten years and don't need to be told what they can do. You last remark doesn't merit a reply.

 

[Dry Rot]

The biggest problem with dogs in society today is the object on the other end of the lead.

Forget banning e-collars as a measure to protect dogs (I have no hard feelings either way, I considered it for my dog as he was such hard work, decided against it, but would not wish to prevent others using them, many dogs owe their existence to them), do something about the scum who train their dogs as legal lethal weapons, use them as 'hard man' status symbols, puppy farm them, and worst of all use them for fighting.

That would help the welfare of dogs infinitely more than a ban on something the middle classes don't like the sound of. But of course that would be difficult, involving taking on the psychotic and criminal scum of society, rather than a normal person trying to train their dog to do the right thing, so as usual the politicians will go for the easy option........

The problem is that most novice trainers spend 99% of their time trying to train out bad behaviour that should never have been allowed to start in the first place.

Stock worrying would not be the problem it is if owners realised that most young dogs will chase sheep, so be prepared for it and nip it in the bud by training the dog before it happens. Do that and there is no need for e-collars or sticks.

 

[Dry Rot]

Electric collar an invaluable tool in the right hands. How else do you chastise a dog at 400m for gripping a ewe? Gives you ability to link the punishment to the crime in a dog's mind. My present main dog is one of the best working collies I have ever owned. He owes his life to the collar, because if not for it he would have to have been destroyed. Only thing that could slow him or stop him when young.

I accept what you are saying but not necessarily your reasoning. The dog is as likely to think the sheep caused the shock. But, I agree, the result is the same. Just that I would have done it differently! There is no one single way of doing anything in training.

 

[shumungus]

I accept what you are saying but not necessarily your reasoning. The dog is as likely to think the sheep caused the shock. But, I agree, the result is the same. Just that I would have done it differently! There is no one single way of doing anything in training.

How would you do it?

 

[betweenthelines]

Correctly used, electronic collars are as good for training dogs as electric fences are for training other livestock.

Anything in the wrong hands-from a stick to a gun-can be used incorrectly and is dangerous.

 

[Skimmer]

I got a rescue GSD and & couldn't stop her chasing cattle to the point I would have to take her back, somone suggested a shock collar & after a few days wearing that she got the message, 11 years later she is still my best friend what would have happened to her without the collar who knows.

 

[roscoe erf]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the imminent ban on these and electric boundary devices, as mentioned by Jeremy Vine R2 yesterday.
It appears that Gove has gone along with RSPCA assertions that they are inhumane.
Any dog trainers care to comment, one way or the other. I have no agenda either way.
Other than perhaps the ultimate conclusion that electric fences may now also be under threat?

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...-to-ban-electric-collars.210868/#post-4778452